Changing the world - November 2021

Dear Seekers,

To further increase the balance between the 4 current towns, I decided to make some alterations to the world map which hasn't been changed since adding the town Azetyth.

The changes:

• Adding additional forests around Azetyth and Sarmiz. Removing a forest close to Spero; Creating the same travel distance to the forest for each town.
  
• Moving the Iron mine to the left and adding a new road toward it. Creating a more balanced travel pattern for Azetyth and Camaar.
  
• Moving the Coal Mine more north and adding additional roads toward it. This increases the travel distance from Spero but brings the Coal mine closer to Sarmiz.
  
• Removing few roads; Removing a part of the road leading to the old coal mine location. And a road leading to the Flooded Quarry which isn't a popular travel destination.
  

Legend:

• Red dot: Remove current tile and turn it into "grassland".
  
• Blue dot: New position of the Coal Mine and Iron Mine.
  
• Blue line: New road.
  
• Green dot: New forest
  
• Yellow dot: New mountain.
  

Before adding those changes we value your thoughts and possible suggestions on the matter. So let me know what you think!

As someone who doesn't use a horse and wont until my Walking is 100, moving the iron mine is basically going to ruin my entire gameplay that centers on iron. And someone is going to say "well just trade for your ore", but the entire point of me mining is so that I can smith and trade that skill for cooking services (which I have no use to do myself since the skill is 100). So maybe I eat the stam waste - just cook for myself and not outsource it to new players. Its not like I can move at this point given that I have roughly 5.5 fields and a full ranch, either.

I think it makes more sense to have two coal mines and two iron mines. One of each split between Aze/Camaar and Spero/Sarmiz.

I'd suggest putting the iron mine at the vertical extension of Azetyth's road into the mountains. Just south from their town at that little "foresty" tile there. On road it's the same distance to travel for them, and for Camaar it's not moving the mine so far away if they dare to go off-road

The new coal mine location seems okay. If causes some deforestation for road construction and the sudden rise of mountains but I think the environmental impact is worse elsewhere.
And no. Only one mine of each type should exist in the Realm. Otherwise it would get stale when every town has equal access to everything. What would be the reason to have multiple town then?

Could we also make the change to access the water. Could Spero and Sarmiz have the same number of tiles as Azetyth and Camaar to reach the shore?

The proposed map change would make grail life mildly harder for most players, and would not make things better for Azetyth and Sarmiz.


The reason?  This map change would make mining harder for almost all players, which doesn't improve anybody's grail life.  It would only make items more expensive ... that won't help Azetyth and Sarmiz.  (adding woods closer to Azetyth and Sarmiz is a nearly negligible change, but it is a good thing for them and thus should be implemented)

The good stuff that would result from the proposed map change:
Azetyth players who mine iron will save only ~14 stamina when traveling to the new Iron Mine (between 7 and 21 stamina, depending on whether the player has a warhorse and Riding skill is maxxed).  How many active players in Azetyth actually mine significant amounts of iron? Not very many.  How many Azetyth players do you think will suddenly start mining, if the Iron Mine is ~14 stamina closer to them?  Also not many ...  14 stamina saved per trip (closer to 7 stamina saved, for serious miners) is not that much savings.

Sarmiz players who mine coal will save ~27 stamina when traveling to the new Coal Mine (between 18-36 stamina).  Again: how many active Sarmiz player mine significant amounts of coal?  Not many.  How many Sarmiz players who have never mined coal will suddenly begin mining it, once they know that it will be ~27 stamina closer?  Also not many.

The result: a couple of miners in Azetyth and Sarmiz would save 14 stamina (for Az) or 27 stamina (for Miz) per mining trip, which isn't enough savings to make a significant impact on those two towns.

The bad stuff that would result from the proposed map change:
Everybody else will have a significantly harder time of getting both iron and coal, which will increase the cost of all items that requires coal or iron for all seekers in the realm, including Azetyth and Sarmiz.  Azetyth will be even MORE isolated from the Coal Mine, and Sarmiz will be even MORE isolated from the Iron Mine.  The majority of players, even in Azetyth and Sarmiz, will end up paying higher prices for a lot of items ... does that really help anyone?

Thus, the map change would have a n overall negative effect on the grail economy as a whole, by causing items to be more expensive.  Which towns will suffer more the most from higher prices?  Az and Sarmiz will, because Camar and Spero have more wealth.

To truly help Az and Sarmiz: move the Grail Monastery to the center of the grail realms, roughly equidistant to all towns, and allow players to trade at the GM for free (no taxes).  This would promote economic activity, and result in citizens of Sarmiz and Azetyth getting cheaper prices on nearly all goods.  That change would help the citizens of the two towns that are struggling the most: Azetyth and Sarmiz.

If the purpose of map adjustments is to further increase the balance between the 4 current towns there ought to be some measure of equilibrium and economic benefit to the proposed changes. If those changes are implemented as proposed this will perpetuate imbalance with more side effects on the frail Grail economy for many players.

I like and support the feedback and proposals that all towns should have same access to water and forests and that Grail Monastery to be an equal distance tax free 'trade centre'. But for the 2 mines - some location adjustment is still needed if it is to have a balance, as in sharing the coal mine equally between Sarmiz and Spero - share the iron mine equally between Azetyth and Camaar and move the stone quarry next to Grail Monastery so we all have access to it, equally. Or the iron mine shared between Sarmiz and Spero and coal between Azetyth and Camaar. Or just put all mines/quarry and Grail Monastery on an island right in the middle of the map so we all have equal road distance to get to the boat and pay the ferry too - increasing the naval construction skills


Proposed changes feedback:
Sarmiz gets the coal mine closer (>20 tiles) but not as close as Spero (<20 tiles) however the stone quarry belongs to Sarmiz (close distance) which means if stone will become more useful Sarmiz will have an advantage.

With the iron mine being so close to Azetyth but so further away of all other towns one town will become the main beneficiary to the detriment of all the other towns, those ones who already have skilled craftsmen and ore smelters and will lose their only income and even the capacity to help new players with cooking jobs or other 'Grail Skill' trades or goods/items or goods/goods or goods/skill, which actually is what makes the game have an minimal economy of produce/swap instead of waiting for eons for someone to buy them off the market to be able to make some bronze.

Will these proposed changes encourage a mass exodus of players towards Sarmiz and Azetyth? Or will they make Older Seekers not being able to afford a source of income for the trade they spent years training in? They will not even afford to make cheap priced tools for new players anymore. Will we all become wood chopping masters, fishermen and farmers? Wait - no farmers - iron will be too expensive to afford a plough perhaps. I do not know. I have not yet 'lived' many Grail Years. But the new map does not look more balanced than the old map to me. Just perpetuates inequality and shortcuts older towns in favour of newer towns. Not that what map we have now is perfect but if changes are to be made to balance towns that balance ought to shine through.

I'd better hold on my iron ore whilst we are at it and hope the move won't happen whilst I am in the iron mine 

The forest change I agree with. But reducing the size of the map to make all towns equidistant from GM is the change I wanted to see. Move resources so they are more accessible to all is fine, but the gigantic distances are still part of this map

You can add some story like the old mine is empty, An abandoned mine may be a hazard to health, safety or environment. So Lord Aro decide to close it down, and some traveller found new mines while hiking .

Well, I don't think you need to change it, like a real life continental, not every country have same resources, some rich because oil, some rich because ore, and some rich in agriculture etc. You just need to make each town have their own benefit, not same benefit.

Heyo Everyone.

Interesting map that you have there Aro - I will go into the details of what it all means for me and Spero in a minute but first I need to ask a question:

What is it that increasing the balance between towns actually looks like?

This is important because understanding this is what allows us to evaluate the changes in the map.

My personal view is that all towns should be viable (i.e. seekers should be able to thrive in every town) but that does not mean that all towns should be the same - in fact I believe the opposite is true, towns should each have a different set of things going for and against them.

Reviewing the geographical aspects which work in favour or against a town we have the following:

Forest Access - Important to gather wood, go hunting and gather forest herbs.

Water Access - Important for fishing and to gather shore herbs.

Closeness to the Monastery - This is an advantage once a week when seekers travel to the monastery for their weekly errand and to wash Aro´s feet in devotion. Well ok maybe Aro´s feet have not been washed in a while   

Access to mining resources - Coal and Iron, they are about equal in importance, needed for miners and essential for the iron economy overall. (As someone who spends a lot of time smelting, this is a big deal)

Access to stone - I list this for the sake of completeness, however at this point in time stone has a very limited set of uses - so access to stone in practice has little effect on a town (Folks of Sarmiz feel free to correct me if I am wrong!).

Proximity to other towns - In principle if two towns are close the opportunities for trade between the towns increase.

So what does this map update do?

It pretty much makes all towns equal when it comes to access to forests. - People seem to like this. It makes all towns the same in this context. A bit boring.

It substantially changes access to the mining sites - here it is worth while doing an analysis of the impact it has on towns:

Camaar - total impact +18 (the bigger the number the more worse the impact)
Is no longer the closest town to the iron mine. New distance 24 squares, old distance 8 squares (+16).
The coal mine also moves a little farther away. New distance 41 squares, old distance 39 squares (+2).

Spero - total impact +22

The iron mine goes off far far away... New distance 53 squares, old distance 37 (+16).
But it remains the closest town to the coal mine though it too moves away. New distance 17 squares, old distance 11 squares (+6).

Sarmiz - total impact -6 (mines are now a little closer to Sarmiz overall)

The iron mine wanders off... New distance 54 squares, old distance 38 squares (+16)
The Coal mine though gets closer! New distance 23 squares, old distance, 45 by road. (-22)

Azetyth - total impact -4 (again mines are a little closer to Azetyth overall)
Becomes the closest town to the iron mines - New distance 15 squares, old distance 21 squares (-6)
But the coal mine moves away a little - New distance 56 squares, old distance 54 squares, (+2)


I actually think the impact here is not so much on towns but on miners - I buy mining products, and as a smelter I buy a LOT of mining products. I buy from miners located in every town and will continue to do so, that does not affect me. However "casual" mining becomes harder - the mines are farther away, even from the towns which are closest to the mines, which means that there and back again trips are less interesting, especially for young miners. We will see what impact this has on mining and mining products. Certainly will be interesting.

And a fun little fact - Camaar becomes the town which is most viable for miners who want to hit both the coal and the iron mines, as it has the shortest overall distance to both mines. Given Camaar's central location this is almost impossible to avoid.

Now as Governor of Spero I am obliged to let Aro know that we acutely feel the lack of love. First we have the ferry taken away and now our miners are the ones most impacted of any city and even the forest walks away (picture treants waking up and walking off at this point). It is a hard life. There is one sliver of an advantage in the map change in that Spero would be closer to Sarmiz. We will see how that works out.

Ok lots of rambling - but here is my assessment of the changes:

Towns will have similar access to forests after this. (I am obliged here to ask Aro to please let Spero keep our forest. We promise to be good and take good care of it, we will no longer cut down trees to make ferries we promise!).

Mining is going to be upended. Casual miners in particular are going to reconsider what they do (several folks here commented on this) but it is not going to impact the dedicated miners who go down the mine and stay there until their wagons are full. In particular it makes mining a somewhat more difficult profession for young seekers to get into (More stamina needed going to and from the mines - young seekers are not known for their massive reserves of stamina).

Oh and I love the new mountains.

Now onto the real question. Are miners going to have a better chance of finding gems in these new mines?

Final word on the matter - Better wood access is great for those towns that get it. Moving the mines around is not going to have much impact on towns overall because of how mining works in practice these days, though casual miners will be hit hard as no matter where they go mines are going to be farther away that today.

actually I do not see why older towns must be 'penalised' to balance the location of new towns when new towns could have been created from the start with 'balance' in mind.

why not add more uses to stone so that Sarmiz can get a higher advantage from being next to a quarry and a new resource close to Azetyth, on the water - like gas extraction or mountain caves with some benefits?

Nice to have expansions to look forward to.

I will apologise in advance for my honesty. I do feel that nothing us players can say or do will change this map decision. It has been an experience 'discussing' it. Like many, I may 'live' with changes which are out of my own control (provided I am not banned on account of too much honesty lol) but I  also believe that all community has the right to have an opinion, useless as that may be in the grand scheme of fantastic new things that are awaiting for us all, and that their opinions ought to be as valued.

It will be interesting to hear what Azetyth and Sarmiz players have to say about it - for sure. I am looking forward to them sharing their opinions. I wonder why they do not do it?

As for erasing the rich history built up over decades - that has already happened only too recently by removing the Ferry from a town that won it fairly in the past. I do not 'live' in Spero so I probably cannot be accused of being biased when expressing an opinion on this matter.

Hello Everyone,

Some of these ideas and comments are really awesome.  Clearly everyone has put a lot of though into the possible consequences of these upcoming changes.  I'm only four months old in the realm.  I have barely travelled and have a lot of things left to learn and discover.  However, I concur that if I knew now how big a penalty Azetyth's distance from everything has proven for so many of my endeavors, I would not have picked it as a town to live in, and would have moved out before investing in my 9 ranches.  People from Sarmiz and Spero have zero reason to even go near Azetyth so there is no incentive to trade.  Not everyone in Azetyth even goes to the Grail Monastery for the Weekly Errand or to do trades because it is a painfully long journey without a group or a horse.  That said I have two options that I would encourage Lord Arogandor to consider.

Option 1
I propose moving Azetyth closer to the Grail Monastery.  There is a clearing in the Forest west of the current Iron Mines.  I think it would be interesting to move Azetyth to either that location or the tile right above it.  This is just my opinion, but it would allow Azetyth to be equidistant to the Grail Monastery, and the unique situation of being inside of a forest adds to the allure of living there.  Plus it adds some interesting variety to the town placements.  It also makes Azetyth a bit more dangerous as there are dangerous enemies hiding inside the forest.

Option 2
A different option to help balance out Azetyth's distance from the Grail Monastery is adding a Ferry next to Azetyth that links to the Ferry Express.  This would add an interesting travel option that would help connect it with the Eastern parts of the map better.  This ferry option would also help Sarmiz citizens to get to the new Iron Mines more easily.

All the other changes could continue as they are now.

I am not looking to make Azetyth the same as everyone else.  I would love to not be so heavily penalized by our distance to everyone else.  Also having a town in the middle of the woods seems really cool.  Maybe we don't even have a road to the city and you have to brave the dangers of the forest to reach Azetyth.  That would certainly set it apart without being so far away.

I hope these ideas prove to be interesting enough to consider, as it would be really amazing to be closer to the rest of the Realm.  Thank you for reading this.

Cyprane

Pan dreamed that he was a hawk, soaring above the land.  He could feel the cool air rushing against his feathers ...

From this vantage point, Pan could see the entire Grail Realms spread out below him.

With a shock, Pan realized these were not the same realms that he was accustomed to seeing! Perhaps an earthquake had occurred?

A large chain of mountains had sprung forth from the land, almost exactly where Lord Arogandor had predicted they would!

Pan could see that the old mines had been exhausted, but industrious seekers had explored and found new deposits of coal and iron - with his excellent hawkish eyesight, Pan could easily make out the black circles where the new mines were located.  By a great stroke of luck, Caamar and Azetyth were almost exactly equal distances from the iron mine!  Simliarly, Spero and Sarmiz were equal distances from the coal mines ... praise the grail lords!

Even more wonderful: the powerful grail magicians had moved the entire Grail Monastery to a location that was equally accessible by all four towns!!!  Even Ugdar had been moved!

There were other changes too: all of the towns now had excellent access to both forests and shores.  Some old roads had grown over, while seekers had built new roads that better served the land.

The cock crowed, and Pan awoke with a start to see the first rays of light peeking over the horizon.  As Pan rubbed the sleep from his eyes and prepared for another day in the realms, he wondered to himself.

Was the dream a prophecy of things to come?  Or merely the product of an over-active imagination?

Eh, it was probably just a foolish dream ....

I do not have a strong opinion on this. I moved to Sarmiz knowing that it's awkwardly positioned, so I don't have an issue with the mines being far away. But I can sympathise with newcomers who end up in a town that is comparatively remote.

My only observation is that the map should be future-proof so that you can easily add a new town without making any other changes. With the initial draft, where would you add a 5th town? There's no obvious place so if we're going to the trouble of changing the map, it makes sense to plan where that expansion location would be.

I like Pan's alternate map.  It needs a road to the new Iron Mines.

It would be nice if the forests around the new Azetyth location remained.  I know it creates easier access to the forest compared to other towns, but it makes it more visually interesting.  It would also mean that the citizens of Aze would have to travel through forest to get to the ocean which is kind of cool.

I like the repositioning of Sarmiz.  It allows them better access to the ocean and the stone quarry.  I would consider leaving the old road and just extending at the southern end to the coal mine.  It puts Sarmiz closer to the new Grail Monastery location, but after being so far for so long, it would be a welcome change for a little bit.

Camaar's new location is interesting.

It is possible we leave Azetyth's old location and road there.  It could be a story element where a band of nomadic barbarians seiged Azetyth and ran out all the seekers.  With Azetyth being so full of young seekers we were unable to defend ourselves and retreated into the forest.  The new Azetyth uses the forests to further protect from a possible new barbarian invasion.   We could then have old Aze become a dungeon in the future with a barbarian encampment adventure.

As for the possibility of a future town added to the realm, we could expand Eastward next time.  Maybe this new town doesn't have access to the ocean, but there is a small lake nearby with fishing.  This would allow it to be placed in a way that isn't a detrimental distance to the Grail Monastery.  It would be closer to the Coal Mine than any other town.  BUT maybe that is why it is built.  A collection of Coal Miners decided to make their travels easier by building a town closer to the mine.

As a proud sarmizian (Life is hard in the north) I can only agree for 100% with Hirza's comment, as well as daradle's.
meaning: new players are surely set back if they start in azetyth compared to camaar/spero and we don 't need towns with comparable access to the same resources. just a more equal story about them (Stone is quite unuseful, for example).

and Pan, your map rocks dude!

I like the new map. And please make stone useful :-) There's just too few people in jail to throw stones at  

Cyprane wrote:I like Pan's alternate map. It needs a road to the new Iron Mines.

I also had the same thought but asked Pan about his thinking regarding that decision. He said that although the distance is shorter to the mine, the stamina cost evens out since you are traveling through rougher terrain to get there. That's an interesting way to have something "closer" but still cost the same.

Also, in response to Pan's map, I actually like it quite a bit. I like the idea that the East side of the map is more established and civilized since those towns have been around longer....and the West is more rural and dangerous. Azetyth being inside the forest is really cool and gives it an encampment sort of feel.

It would be a lot of fun if the towns did have their own unique "flavor" that set them apart from one another somehow. Aro has mentioned that this could be accomplished with quests and not map changes which is also something to consider. I don't think ther are currently enough map resources in the game to assign to each town evenly.

Overall, I am in favor of Aro's original map change but see the potential of these creative suggestions.

Future proofing the map if there is going to be a fifth town is a really good idea as well.

Great to see Sarmiz and Azetyth feeback, there are many good ideas on this thread that would not be possible if the thread was not open to us all to comment on. Thank you Lord Arogandor for your work behind the scenes and for taking the time to respond. Apologies for the irony.

Hello Lord Arogandor and Seekers of the Realm,

I truly appreciate all the hard work going into making these upcoming map changes to the realm.  I look forward to seeing how everything will change and the seekers of the realm adapt.  I would like to make one last plea in regards to the relocation of Azetyth.  

I would like to propose that Azetyth be relocated to the Purple Spot on the map below.  It is the only change to the updated map that Lord Arogandor has created.  I also propose leaving the road to the old layout as a historical location.  The reason why I propose that this change would benefit Azetyth without creating an imbalance in the realm is that there are no roads through the woods (21 Road Tiles and 2 Wood Tiles to get to the Grail Monastery).  This would increase the stamina required to travel to the Grail Monastery and put all the towns within the 20s tiles worth of road stamina consumption.  The closer location to Camaar would also encourage more trade between the two towns, as well as being closer to everyone else.

I am aware that this creates a town that is now closer to a forest than any other town.  Every other town has something important that they are close to.  Camaar has the Ocean, the closest travel distance to the Grail Monastery (21 Road Tiles) and a healthy path through grasslands to the new Iron Mines.  Spero has the Witch Hut, the second closest Ocean tiles, second closest to the Grail Monastery (25 Road Tiles), and the updated Coal Mines.  Sarmiz has the Stone Quarry (which will hopefully grow in worth in the future), they are closest to the Ferry Express, better access to the new Coal Mines and the third closest to the Grail Monastery (27 Road Tiles).  Being close to the forest can be Azetyth's important thing that we are close to, and the location adds a great visual flair within the realm.

Each town has something that makes it a worthwhile option to live in regardless of seeker age.  The proposed relocation of Azetyth 4 tiles further south still keeps it 32 Road Tiles away from the Grail Monastery while making it the furthest away from an Ocean tile at 6 tiles vs Sarmiz's 5 tiles.  These four tiles don't bring Azetyth close enough to the Grail Monastery to positively impact travel time, but now removes the luxury of being two tiles away from the Ocean just like Camaar currently is.  I feel that the current relocation of Azetyth does a lot more harm than good for the town and humbly implore that my proposed location be considered, or that Azetyth does not change locations.

I know all these changes are meant to help improve the every day lives of the seekers of the realm.  And I am sure that there is information that I do not know that might make a stronger positive impact in the future for all the towns with the current changes Lord Arogandor has mentioned.  I am not the Lord of the Realm, so the choice is not mine to make.  But I feel that my proposed changes can help make Azetyth feel like a part of the realm.  As opposed to a distant outpost no one wants to visit.  Our current isolated and distant location, in the current and proposed map, sometimes make it feel like it is a penalty to live in Azetyth.  

I am aware that if I don't like the situation in Azetyth I could just leave and relocate to a more favorable town.  But it is where I started, and I want to make it the best it can be.  Too often people just relocate to Camaar from Azetyth due to its strong central location.  I hope that with the new forest location, people will want to stay in Azetyth, and maybe older seekers will be inspired to move here as well.  It should also allow new seekers to have an experience that is just as accessible as it would have been in any of the other three towns.

Thank you for taking your time to read this.  I hope that my humble opinion shows some merit.  Regardless of the outcome, I will continue to strive to make Azetyth the best possible town it can be.

P.S. If you need a story reason why we moved into the forest, we could blame it on a barbarian attack.  Our distance from everyone made it difficult for reinforcements to arrive in time so we went into the forest to better fortify our defenses for the future.