Pigs and their gains

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Post by Lord Arogandor on Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:28 am

Dear Seekers,

We altered the amount of meat and skins gained from slaughtering pigs.
I'm fully aware that this isn't a popular change and that this might upset people, but it's all for the good of the Realm! :yay:

A fully fattened pig in the hands of a Seeker with Grail Pig Attitude Skill yields no less than 52 meat and 23 Writable Skins!
Long ago this might been the right balance for pigs, but today we have mountains of meat and skins, which simply keep growing.

So from this day on the Pig Attitude Skill has no longer an effect on the amount of meat gained! No other Animal Attitude affects the yields gained when slaughtering an animal anyway.
This targets only the Seekers with a high Pig Attitude Skill, so younger Seekers suffer little from this change.

The amount of base skins gained is lowered from 10 base skins to 5 base skins.

New formulas:


Meat gained = fat level of the pig * 2.
Skins gained = 5 + fat level of the pig.

This update will be activated in two days (count as 2 resets), giving you the chance to use the old formulas one more time.

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Post by Cpt_Coot on Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:24 pm

Dang,  i picked the wrong time to just hit 100 pig attitude lol.

In all seriousness though,  i agree that meat abundance needed to be addressed.    I would mention though,  that unless a new use is added for corn,  and the cost of pig boosting potions is reduced,  this may be overkill.  
I usually assume between buying the pig (4s) an average of 6 corn (3s60b)to max fat level during the span of one pig boosting portion (15s/9 pigs=1s67b)  allowing maybe an extra silver for occasional exploding pig.  So not counting stamina,  you're looking at the cost to fatten a pig as 9s27b, and they now yield 26 meat max.   add in valuing your feeding the pig (again, assuming 6 days to fatten at max effort) at 6 stamina,  slaughtering at 20 stamina and you're looking at 35b+stamina per meat to fatten fast with corn and pig boosting potions.   If stamina is valued at 2.5b/ point,  which i feel is a pretty fair valuation through the realm,  you're looking at essentially a cost of 65b per fully fattened pig for slaughter and feed, or 2.5b per meat.
So the cost to produce meat is  now 37.5b per meat in the most efficent way possible,  this is calculated for averages on very high pig levels around lvl80, would be less efficient at lower. This cost also does not in any way take pig boosting potions into account, which would realistically add 1s50b to the cost of each pig, or another ~6b each meat, bringing us up to 43b to produce each meat.
This doesn't mean that meat will be nonexistent,  simply that potioning and corn loading will not be the most efficient way to get meat from pigs, and that cows or sheep may now be more efficent ways to make meat,  period.  Personally with this new formula, i will probably keep my pigs,  but they'll be more for the luck bonus and less for meat.

I am 100% ok with the implications of these changes,  i just wanted to break it down for people.   If corn is not given another use though,  it will seriously be entirely non existant beyond this point.   At current field yields, it just won't be worth what corn is worth to feed it to your pigs anymore.   Also i would recommend pig potions are either reduced in unit cost to make by 50%, or explosion chance halved.

Edit, i know i didn't factor in writable skins,  but since many of us have thousands and thousands in storage i think this is moot point.
Another edit:  This does open the door a bit to another re-balance option... increasing field gains across the board.  Corn was really the only crop that was incredibly profitable in the past (with the exception of maybe hops, but mathematically hops are only profitable because of those of us who sell to the tavern at a monetary loss to increase our mercantile slowly.)


Last edited by Cpt_Coot on Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Dutch on Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:57 pm

Well if it means killing the use of corn-- I am 100% against the changes.  We need more resources on the market to have value, not less.  Wheat already suffers as an almost useless crop.  Do we really want to add corn to that list now?  What's that leave to farm, hops and crops like vegetables, grapes, and potatoes which have situational uses at best?  From a game development standpoint, I fail to see the positives here.  Feels like it'll nearly tank farming unless some clever solutions can be made.  And from a market standpoint, it's further limiting what is actually worth buying and selling and encouraging more things to sit uselessly, like the way ingredients do at present.  Not to mention, this change also kills the one potion that actually sells on the market outside of event and further makes alchemy suck.  How is this good for the game?

While it's true that we may have a flooding of meat on the market, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.  It's active, with a lot of players involved in its buying and selling.  Everyone needs meat and having a farmable resource like corn contribute to supplying that meat is a good thing, as it gives more value to farming as a profession.  It also gives use to alchemy by sparking a need for pig potions. If you're concerned about people not using other ranch animals or field types, maybe instead of gimping meat, it's time to evaluate the products produced by those animals/fields to make them more worthwhile and attractive to the player-base. 

Wool for instance, hardly sells and there's good reason for that as few need it for tailoring (a solution that might be fixed by requiring wool for other items like beds).  Milk's value has dropped substantially due to the debuff of resistance (though it still gets some action at least and cheese at least helps with that).  Patience, Endurance, and Charisma are alrightish stats, but their uses are so situational and specific that the corresponding crop for them are likewise limited in value and often sit unbought on the market.   Bread is almost completely worthless and thus so is wheat/flour.  Personally, I'd like to see these goods get more  action and I think if you balanced those a bit, you could very well fix your problem of everyone dogpiling on meat.   

At the very least, if you're really set on slowing meat a bit, I think the math on this should be looked at so as to not completely destroy the corn and pig potion markets.
Dutch
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Post by Cae Indru on Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:55 pm

The changes should affect the pigs brought after the changes are activated, not old pigs brought considering old rules.

New rules convinced me to not buy more pigs... but i can't slaughter the pigs i own sooner than it should...

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Post by Lord Arogandor on Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:49 am

Dear Seekers, thank you for your feedback!

Today 32% of all the food in the Realm is meat and nearly 20% of all the resources in the Realm are Writable Skins.

Without using any calculations on profit -as my calculations aren't the same as those of the Seekers (especially Seekers involved in the business), and as calculations always lead to endless discussion- I looked at the meat gained, finding that Pig Attitude directly affects the amount of meat gained when Slaughtering pigs and removed that skill bonus.

In time, this will result into fewer pigs, fewer meat and fewer skins. Either because Pigs simply yield less or because nobody is interested in raising pigs. Either way, the mountains of meat and skin will decrease. Time will tell how this will affect the corn and potion production or how expensive meat will become. If anyone figures out a system to re-balance everything at once, please share.

Ambitious newbie Pig farmers who can't afford potions and produce their own corn suddenly no longer suffer from a huge disadvantage due to their Skill.


The changes should affect the pigs brought after the changes are activated, not old pigs brought considering old rules.
New rules convinced me to not buy more pigs... but i can't slaughter the pigs i own sooner than it should...
You are absolutely right, that would been the ideal way to add new changes, in the future I will try to keep that in mind.

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Post by Mena32 on Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:11 am

pigs with this change they are not worth the cost to feed/raise any more sad any time i max a skill it gets nerfed hard like this. it seems. corn cost to much and the price of the pig it self is high just not worth it any more. wish you would have given us notice i have 200 corn still... thanks.

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Post by framer on Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:06 am

So far the only reason you mentioned for these changes are an overproduction of meat and skins, which I think is fair enough to address. However, they also target the production costs of meat which you didn't mention as a problem at all. I don't believe increasing those costs is good for the realm.

Ever since the changes in how protection works, Strength has become incredibly important for any new seeker looking to do any form of combat. Having affordable meat available makes this possible from a younger age, which I'm convinced helps retain more combat oriented players (something that should definitely interest you).

As far as calculations go, mine are pretty much the same as Coots and with a similar conclusion: Pigs will no longer be the most efficient source of meat. The ambitious newbie pig farmer that produces their own corn will be better off keeping different animals and growing a useful crop instead.

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Post by Dutch on Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:40 am

Lord Arogandor wrote:Dear Seekers, thank you for your feedback!

Today 32% of all the food in the Realm is meat and nearly 20% of all the resources in the Realm are Writable Skins.

And?  You haven't explained how this is a bad thing.   People like to trade in meat and writable skins-- ok?  Fine, let's acknowledge that.  Meat and Writable Skins were a highly competitive market with a lot of action, layers, and people involved.  What's wrong with that?  I'd think you'd want your market to be competitive to your player base.  What-- because people aren't trading in the other resources?  Not enough resource diversity for you?  Maybe that has more to do with those other resources and less to do with meat/pigs, as I stated.  

Also get ready for the unintended consequence being LESS diversity on the market, as gimping meat form pigs means killing corn trade as well and hammering in the final nail to potion trading.

In time, this will result into fewer pigs, fewer meat and fewer skins. Either because Pigs simply yield less or because nobody is interested in raising pigs. Either way, the mountains of meat and skin will decrease.

Congratulations.  This helps the game-- how?  

Ambitious newbie Pig farmers who can't afford potions and produce their own corn suddenly no longer suffer from a huge disadvantage due to their Skill.

...and newbie corn farmers will be screwed and have to change their field cultures now that they're producing a useless product, and with farming as a whole now on the rocks since the only remaining products are the kinds that sell only occasionally, newbies will have an even harder time making cash that way.  Let's stop pretending this change had anything to do with helping newbies.  It doesn't.  Corn was your go-to if you were a new player looking to make a field.  


Time will tell how this will affect the corn and potion production or how expensive meat will become. If anyone figures out a system to re-balance everything at once, please share.


We don't need time to tell.  The answer to that is obvious-- it will kill those markets.  It's already started to in fact.  Corn suppliers right now are changing their field cultures because of this.  And why shouldn't they?  What incentive is there to produce corn or pig potions now? You don't have to be a mathematician to figure out what that does to farming especially as an industry.

As for your last remark-- how about slow down and take your time until an actual solution can be made?  The % amount of meat and skins that sell on the market is such a small, non-immediate thing to worry about and can be fixed in incremental changes to the other goods that increase their value.  Breaking things that work, however, helps nothing.  All it does is further dull your market, ensuring more product will sit, less will sell, interaction will be reduced, competition reduced, and things will stagnate there more.  That's exactly the opposite of good.  Listen to your player base here.

You have a test server.  If we gotta figure it out there, most of us are happy to help you with that.  But there's absolutely no imperative need for you to take a sledgehammer to this matter and destabilize one of the actually better parts of your economy.
Dutch
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Post by Jubilee on Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:26 pm

I understand your reasoning, I just hope you are cautious that you don't make resources like meat too scarce and too expensive by changing resources like this.  I see that expensive products tend to sit in the market forever! A stagnant market does little good for anyone.  People will spend less and have to save more. Your hard work might sit unbought for months-which inevitably ends up changing how you play the game. Demand and supply will drop as people pursue only a few basic jobs to make simple food and coin. I fear seekers will get bored quickly when there are less options available to them-particularly those seekers under a year on the site that might quickly become less active or quit.  Perhaps there is a way to open up more goods, then people will branch out beyond meat and eggs? 

 I try to do my part with low costing fish.  But I've had to stop since recently some have bought all of my stock just to resell it at double the price!  And then the fish sits in the market unbought for weeks and months because it's now too expensive for the average seeker. To me a healthy economy on a game like this involves a heavy amount of buying and selling of the majority of goods. That means driving the price down and upping the supply AND demand of the majority of goods. I'll try to think up some ideas for that, if you are interested. If not, that's alright.

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Post by Cpt_Coot on Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:13 am

I have mostly contributed to this discussion with data. I will say i agree wholeheartedly with what has been said above and leave it at that and just add data to the best of my ability.

This change was announced less than half a field cycle ago. Spero's fields, which have always shown a strong plurality if not outright majority of corn have dropped drastically already to below the level of hops for the first time i can recall. I wish i could access town tax records to see how much of spero's net income came exclusively from pig potions, corn and meat sales and purchases. I assume it would be substantial, as i was a major player in purchasing and selling those three things and multiple gold arrived and left my hands through spero's markets on those three things specifically each month, yielding tax money each time and i was not the only major purchaser and seller.

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Post by Lord Arogandor on Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:51 am


Dear Seekers,

Thank you for your feedback, suggestions and your positive and constructive criticism. cheers
The changes have been added nonetheless.

I do not feel the need to defend my decisions any longer, but instead, ask of you to keep in mind that there's often a bigger picture for a developer/creator than for players directly affected by change. For every player screaming -loudly- how bad a change is, there might be another Seeker seeing a new opportunity, cheering wildly.

What I take from this discussion is Cae Indru's suggestion to add a gray period between the old and new code so that fewer Seekers are caught by surprise without much room toe wiggle. It will be taken in account for future changes.

To end, in case I did indeed make a poor decision, I'll be not too stubborn to make changes again!
From the very start of this project -and even placed on the front page of the website- this is an ever changing project, for better or worse. It allows us to make improvements, add player suggestions and even make the occasional mistake.

~Your caring Lord  :love1:

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Post by AxineeHearth on Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:13 am

1. I support the nerfing of meat production. (Although I think The Grail Lords shouldv'e given us more time to adjust - say 3 weeks - but oh well.)

 I've been one of several big pig producers the last year, and it's definitely the easiest way to produce big stacks of food.The price of meat has come close to production cost of eggs, so if the price would continue below 25b/meat, I'd rather produce eggs. That being said, the meat production has been good for seekers who wish to improve tme most important stat - Strength - and it has kept the price of other goods down. It has also been easy to increase Decadence - further stimulating consumption of food through soups.

The main problem as I see it is that food production, except meat and eggs/poultry, is way too expensive. There's no true incentive to produce - or even eat - potatoes, grapes, vegetables. The cost of catching fish is also too high. The usage of corn, wheat, hops and potatoes are situational, and not really something we need a lot of, so those crops are not a problem.

2. We need to have stamina cost of producing crops adjusted. I suggest The Grail Lords reduce ploughing, sowing and harvesting to 8 units (instead of 10.) That'd also make corn production less expensive, and demand for corn will continue.

3. I suggest nerfing meat production to 2/3 of former yield, not 1/2. Strength is so important that the cost of meat should be - with 100 skill in pig production - be low enough for meat to be sold at 30-40b.

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