Pigs and their gains

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Post by Lord Arogandor on Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:28 am

Dear Seekers,

We altered the amount of meat and skins gained from slaughtering pigs.
I'm fully aware that this isn't a popular change and that this might upset people, but it's all for the good of the Realm! :yay:

A fully fattened pig in the hands of a Seeker with Grail Pig Attitude Skill yields no less than 52 meat and 23 Writable Skins!
Long ago this might been the right balance for pigs, but today we have mountains of meat and skins, which simply keep growing.

So from this day on the Pig Attitude Skill has no longer an effect on the amount of meat gained! No other Animal Attitude affects the yields gained when slaughtering an animal anyway.
This targets only the Seekers with a high Pig Attitude Skill, so younger Seekers suffer little from this change.

The amount of base skins gained is lowered from 10 base skins to 5 base skins.

New formulas:


Meat gained = fat level of the pig * 2.
Skins gained = 5 + fat level of the pig.

This update will be activated in two days (count as 2 resets), giving you the chance to use the old formulas one more time.

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Post by Cpt_Coot on Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:24 pm

Dang,  i picked the wrong time to just hit 100 pig attitude lol.

In all seriousness though,  i agree that meat abundance needed to be addressed.    I would mention though,  that unless a new use is added for corn,  and the cost of pig boosting potions is reduced,  this may be overkill.  
I usually assume between buying the pig (4s) an average of 6 corn (3s60b)to max fat level during the span of one pig boosting portion (15s/9 pigs=1s67b)  allowing maybe an extra silver for occasional exploding pig.  So not counting stamina,  you're looking at the cost to fatten a pig as 9s27b, and they now yield 26 meat max.   add in valuing your feeding the pig (again, assuming 6 days to fatten at max effort) at 6 stamina,  slaughtering at 20 stamina and you're looking at 35b+stamina per meat to fatten fast with corn and pig boosting potions.   If stamina is valued at 2.5b/ point,  which i feel is a pretty fair valuation through the realm,  you're looking at essentially a cost of 65b per fully fattened pig for slaughter and feed, or 2.5b per meat.
So the cost to produce meat is  now 37.5b per meat in the most efficent way possible,  this is calculated for averages on very high pig levels around lvl80, would be less efficient at lower. This cost also does not in any way take pig boosting potions into account, which would realistically add 1s50b to the cost of each pig, or another ~6b each meat, bringing us up to 43b to produce each meat.
This doesn't mean that meat will be nonexistent,  simply that potioning and corn loading will not be the most efficient way to get meat from pigs, and that cows or sheep may now be more efficent ways to make meat,  period.  Personally with this new formula, i will probably keep my pigs,  but they'll be more for the luck bonus and less for meat.

I am 100% ok with the implications of these changes,  i just wanted to break it down for people.   If corn is not given another use though,  it will seriously be entirely non existant beyond this point.   At current field yields, it just won't be worth what corn is worth to feed it to your pigs anymore.   Also i would recommend pig potions are either reduced in unit cost to make by 50%, or explosion chance halved.

Edit, i know i didn't factor in writable skins,  but since many of us have thousands and thousands in storage i think this is moot point.
Another edit:  This does open the door a bit to another re-balance option... increasing field gains across the board.  Corn was really the only crop that was incredibly profitable in the past (with the exception of maybe hops, but mathematically hops are only profitable because of those of us who sell to the tavern at a monetary loss to increase our mercantile slowly.)


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Post by Dutch on Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:57 pm

Well if it means killing the use of corn-- I am 100% against the changes.  We need more resources on the market to have value, not less.  Wheat already suffers as an almost useless crop.  Do we really want to add corn to that list now?  What's that leave to farm, hops and crops like vegetables, grapes, and potatoes which have situational uses at best?  From a game development standpoint, I fail to see the positives here.  Feels like it'll nearly tank farming unless some clever solutions can be made.  And from a market standpoint, it's further limiting what is actually worth buying and selling and encouraging more things to sit uselessly, like the way ingredients do at present.  Not to mention, this change also kills the one potion that actually sells on the market outside of event and further makes alchemy suck.  How is this good for the game?

While it's true that we may have a flooding of meat on the market, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.  It's active, with a lot of players involved in its buying and selling.  Everyone needs meat and having a farmable resource like corn contribute to supplying that meat is a good thing, as it gives more value to farming as a profession.  It also gives use to alchemy by sparking a need for pig potions. If you're concerned about people not using other ranch animals or field types, maybe instead of gimping meat, it's time to evaluate the products produced by those animals/fields to make them more worthwhile and attractive to the player-base. 

Wool for instance, hardly sells and there's good reason for that as few need it for tailoring (a solution that might be fixed by requiring wool for other items like beds).  Milk's value has dropped substantially due to the debuff of resistance (though it still gets some action at least and cheese at least helps with that).  Patience, Endurance, and Charisma are alrightish stats, but their uses are so situational and specific that the corresponding crop for them are likewise limited in value and often sit unbought on the market.   Bread is almost completely worthless and thus so is wheat/flour.  Personally, I'd like to see these goods get more  action and I think if you balanced those a bit, you could very well fix your problem of everyone dogpiling on meat.   

At the very least, if you're really set on slowing meat a bit, I think the math on this should be looked at so as to not completely destroy the corn and pig potion markets.
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Post by Cae Indru on Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:55 pm

The changes should affect the pigs brought after the changes are activated, not old pigs brought considering old rules.

New rules convinced me to not buy more pigs... but i can't slaughter the pigs i own sooner than it should...

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Post by Lord Arogandor on Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:49 am

Dear Seekers, thank you for your feedback!

Today 32% of all the food in the Realm is meat and nearly 20% of all the resources in the Realm are Writable Skins.

Without using any calculations on profit -as my calculations aren't the same as those of the Seekers (especially Seekers involved in the business), and as calculations always lead to endless discussion- I looked at the meat gained, finding that Pig Attitude directly affects the amount of meat gained when Slaughtering pigs and removed that skill bonus.

In time, this will result into fewer pigs, fewer meat and fewer skins. Either because Pigs simply yield less or because nobody is interested in raising pigs. Either way, the mountains of meat and skin will decrease. Time will tell how this will affect the corn and potion production or how expensive meat will become. If anyone figures out a system to re-balance everything at once, please share.

Ambitious newbie Pig farmers who can't afford potions and produce their own corn suddenly no longer suffer from a huge disadvantage due to their Skill.


The changes should affect the pigs brought after the changes are activated, not old pigs brought considering old rules.
New rules convinced me to not buy more pigs... but i can't slaughter the pigs i own sooner than it should...
You are absolutely right, that would been the ideal way to add new changes, in the future I will try to keep that in mind.

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Post by Mena32 on Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:11 am

pigs with this change they are not worth the cost to feed/raise any more sad any time i max a skill it gets nerfed hard like this. it seems. corn cost to much and the price of the pig it self is high just not worth it any more. wish you would have given us notice i have 200 corn still... thanks.

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Post by framer on Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:06 am

So far the only reason you mentioned for these changes are an overproduction of meat and skins, which I think is fair enough to address. However, they also target the production costs of meat which you didn't mention as a problem at all. I don't believe increasing those costs is good for the realm.

Ever since the changes in how protection works, Strength has become incredibly important for any new seeker looking to do any form of combat. Having affordable meat available makes this possible from a younger age, which I'm convinced helps retain more combat oriented players (something that should definitely interest you).

As far as calculations go, mine are pretty much the same as Coots and with a similar conclusion: Pigs will no longer be the most efficient source of meat. The ambitious newbie pig farmer that produces their own corn will be better off keeping different animals and growing a useful crop instead.

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Post by Dutch on Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:40 am

Lord Arogandor wrote:Dear Seekers, thank you for your feedback!

Today 32% of all the food in the Realm is meat and nearly 20% of all the resources in the Realm are Writable Skins.

And?  You haven't explained how this is a bad thing.   People like to trade in meat and writable skins-- ok?  Fine, let's acknowledge that.  Meat and Writable Skins were a highly competitive market with a lot of action, layers, and people involved.  What's wrong with that?  I'd think you'd want your market to be competitive to your player base.  What-- because people aren't trading in the other resources?  Not enough resource diversity for you?  Maybe that has more to do with those other resources and less to do with meat/pigs, as I stated.  

Also get ready for the unintended consequence being LESS diversity on the market, as gimping meat form pigs means killing corn trade as well and hammering in the final nail to potion trading.

In time, this will result into fewer pigs, fewer meat and fewer skins. Either because Pigs simply yield less or because nobody is interested in raising pigs. Either way, the mountains of meat and skin will decrease.

Congratulations.  This helps the game-- how?  

Ambitious newbie Pig farmers who can't afford potions and produce their own corn suddenly no longer suffer from a huge disadvantage due to their Skill.

...and newbie corn farmers will be screwed and have to change their field cultures now that they're producing a useless product, and with farming as a whole now on the rocks since the only remaining products are the kinds that sell only occasionally, newbies will have an even harder time making cash that way.  Let's stop pretending this change had anything to do with helping newbies.  It doesn't.  Corn was your go-to if you were a new player looking to make a field.  


Time will tell how this will affect the corn and potion production or how expensive meat will become. If anyone figures out a system to re-balance everything at once, please share.


We don't need time to tell.  The answer to that is obvious-- it will kill those markets.  It's already started to in fact.  Corn suppliers right now are changing their field cultures because of this.  And why shouldn't they?  What incentive is there to produce corn or pig potions now? You don't have to be a mathematician to figure out what that does to farming especially as an industry.

As for your last remark-- how about slow down and take your time until an actual solution can be made?  The % amount of meat and skins that sell on the market is such a small, non-immediate thing to worry about and can be fixed in incremental changes to the other goods that increase their value.  Breaking things that work, however, helps nothing.  All it does is further dull your market, ensuring more product will sit, less will sell, interaction will be reduced, competition reduced, and things will stagnate there more.  That's exactly the opposite of good.  Listen to your player base here.

You have a test server.  If we gotta figure it out there, most of us are happy to help you with that.  But there's absolutely no imperative need for you to take a sledgehammer to this matter and destabilize one of the actually better parts of your economy.
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Post by Jubilee on Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:26 pm

I understand your reasoning, I just hope you are cautious that you don't make resources like meat too scarce and too expensive by changing resources like this.  I see that expensive products tend to sit in the market forever! A stagnant market does little good for anyone.  People will spend less and have to save more. Your hard work might sit unbought for months-which inevitably ends up changing how you play the game. Demand and supply will drop as people pursue only a few basic jobs to make simple food and coin. I fear seekers will get bored quickly when there are less options available to them-particularly those seekers under a year on the site that might quickly become less active or quit.  Perhaps there is a way to open up more goods, then people will branch out beyond meat and eggs? 

 I try to do my part with low costing fish.  But I've had to stop since recently some have bought all of my stock just to resell it at double the price!  And then the fish sits in the market unbought for weeks and months because it's now too expensive for the average seeker. To me a healthy economy on a game like this involves a heavy amount of buying and selling of the majority of goods. That means driving the price down and upping the supply AND demand of the majority of goods. I'll try to think up some ideas for that, if you are interested. If not, that's alright.

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Post by Cpt_Coot on Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:13 am

I have mostly contributed to this discussion with data. I will say i agree wholeheartedly with what has been said above and leave it at that and just add data to the best of my ability.

This change was announced less than half a field cycle ago. Spero's fields, which have always shown a strong plurality if not outright majority of corn have dropped drastically already to below the level of hops for the first time i can recall. I wish i could access town tax records to see how much of spero's net income came exclusively from pig potions, corn and meat sales and purchases. I assume it would be substantial, as i was a major player in purchasing and selling those three things and multiple gold arrived and left my hands through spero's markets on those three things specifically each month, yielding tax money each time and i was not the only major purchaser and seller.

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Post by Lord Arogandor on Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:51 am


Dear Seekers,

Thank you for your feedback, suggestions and your positive and constructive criticism. cheers
The changes have been added nonetheless.

I do not feel the need to defend my decisions any longer, but instead, ask of you to keep in mind that there's often a bigger picture for a developer/creator than for players directly affected by change. For every player screaming -loudly- how bad a change is, there might be another Seeker seeing a new opportunity, cheering wildly.

What I take from this discussion is Cae Indru's suggestion to add a gray period between the old and new code so that fewer Seekers are caught by surprise without much room toe wiggle. It will be taken in account for future changes.

To end, in case I did indeed make a poor decision, I'll be not too stubborn to make changes again!
From the very start of this project -and even placed on the front page of the website- this is an ever changing project, for better or worse. It allows us to make improvements, add player suggestions and even make the occasional mistake.

~Your caring Lord  :love1:

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Post by AxineeHearth on Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:13 am

1. I support the nerfing of meat production. (Although I think The Grail Lords shouldv'e given us more time to adjust - say 3 weeks - but oh well.)

 I've been one of several big pig producers the last year, and it's definitely the easiest way to produce big stacks of food.The price of meat has come close to production cost of eggs, so if the price would continue below 25b/meat, I'd rather produce eggs. That being said, the meat production has been good for seekers who wish to improve tme most important stat - Strength - and it has kept the price of other goods down. It has also been easy to increase Decadence - further stimulating consumption of food through soups.

The main problem as I see it is that food production, except meat and eggs/poultry, is way too expensive. There's no true incentive to produce - or even eat - potatoes, grapes, vegetables. The cost of catching fish is also too high. The usage of corn, wheat, hops and potatoes are situational, and not really something we need a lot of, so those crops are not a problem.

2. We need to have stamina cost of producing crops adjusted. I suggest The Grail Lords reduce ploughing, sowing and harvesting to 8 units (instead of 10.) That'd also make corn production less expensive, and demand for corn will continue.

3. I suggest nerfing meat production to 2/3 of former yield, not 1/2. Strength is so important that the cost of meat should be - with 100 skill in pig production - be low enough for meat to be sold at 30-40b.

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Post by Mena32 on Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:55 pm

i highly disagree. this update was awful. 
So from this day on the Pig Attitude Skill has no longer an effect on the amount of meat gained! No other Animal Attitude affects the yields gained when slaughtering an animal anyway.    .... while this is true no other animal needs potions and a crop to raise you have negatively effected 3 areas of your game with 1 update.  
corn is now useless and pigs are to pricey to feed/buy for the amount of meat they yield this shows already as no one is buying pigs any more at lest in spero i cant see the other towns.  so we no longer breed pigs.
3 areas.
meat low yield =
no longer breeding pigs
pointless to grow corn.
pig potion is useless now
i know you think you did right by doing this. but it really was a bad update. it is how ever your game to do with as you please but we as players can choose to stop playing if you start smashing every bit and piece of this game str and meat are very very important. with the ever going game population as well.
hope you read this with a open mind and don't take it as negative i just don't agree with this.


-mena


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Post by Lord Arogandor on Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:03 am

Let's look for a solution Smile

I do NOT want:
- Pigs to be profitable before a certain age (so it takes some time before it's worth slaughtering).
- Pig attitude to come in affect of the amount of meat gained (newbies had a too big of a disadvantage).

Other that than this, I'm open for well thought suggestions that make this change....less harsh.

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Post by framer on Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:24 pm

My main issue with the update is that pigs are no longer the most efficient source of meat, so there really isn't a reason for anyone at all to keep them anymore. I can't imagine that is a desired result.

With Strength being such an important skill I think it would be a good thing for meat to stay one of the more affordable food ingredients, so I would focus on bringing the relative costs back down to a level similar to before the update. Keeping your 2 wishes in mind that could be done by buffing the relative effects of feeding grass and of using potions and corn (this keeps pig attitude more relevant as well).

I don't know what certain minimum age you have in mind when it should be worth slaughtering, but you can adjust for that by either increasing the maximum weight (as long as its combined with the relative buffs I mentioned above) or by making the existing weight gains smaller while increasing the meat gained per weight level.

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Post by Mena32 on Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:53 pm

but the skill should still have some effect and be worth leveling imo.
the skill isn't hard to level but still takes time and effort

my ideas would be 
buff skill effect on grass fat levels. 
more fat levels. (this imo is the only way to make us keep them longer)
buff the effect of corn maby +2 fat levels guaranteed - 3 levels (would make corn have a point again) most crops are valued at 60b each. and meat is valued at 30 ish bronze so this is fair.
half the breeding units (this would reduce the cost for the town to breed them and in turn the cost to buy them)

right now people like me are sitting on corn and it has devalued a lot.
i personally spent half a year growing corn for it to end up useless this is a big part of why im so upset and rightfully so.. 

i think the issue is you only see it as people buying a pig stuffing corns and potions into em and killing them but your not seeing the time and efforts that go into making the potions and farming the corn all that time counts.

what ever you do i hope you make something useful to do with corn.

and just a note about the newbies had a big disadvantage thing  we all started at level 1 pig skill and raised our skill a new player working with pigs should be as good as someone who trained hard and maxed a skill? wheres the sense in that?

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Post by Lord Arogandor on Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:20 pm

Dear Seekers,

Thank you all for your feedback and selfless attempts to make The Grail Lords a better game!
After a pleasant and constructive debate with Lady Discofeist earlier today I would like to propose the following two changes related to pigs and their meat yield:

- Corn can be fed once every two days to a pig (instead of once a day).
- The amount of meat gained from slaughtering pigs doubles (giving 4 meat for each fat level instead of 2 meat).

Why I would add this:
- To see you all smile again.
- Fattening pigs with corn would take twice as long as before the update, and thus slow down the production of meat.

Why would you like this:
- The amount of meat gained using potions or corn is very similar as before this update (it will take you just more time).

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Post by Mena32 on Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:05 pm

this is much better. dunno why i didn't think of that. but im glad someone did. i was trying to get others to come in here and put suggestions up.

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Post by Cpt_Coot on Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:12 am

Kudos to the bit about smiling again. I appreciate a constructive response to the, for lack of a better phrase, outrage.

I like the change, we're essentially going back to same rewards for fat level 13 that it was before for a level 100 for everyone, albeit in about 160% of the time it used to take assuming potions and corn. Also, this increases potion cost per pig, so theoretically more potion consumption. Good things. My only fear of negative in this change is that there could theoretically be more meat production than before, depending on how many people level pig attitude in the wake of this change. All in all, it would be worth a try in my opinion.

I'd like to note that the only reason this change was difficult to deal with, is that chickens and pigs yield meat and poultry depending on age, whereas cows, sheep (and horses) yield 8 meat regardless of age. Balancing all ranch animals would be easiest in future if they all grew in "meat value" as they aged or none did. Its ok for sheep and cows to be fixed meat values, but as long as they are they will be the economic constant for meat-- not a bad thing necessarily, just a thing. Currently, buying a sheep, slaughtering it, and reaping the meat is more efficient than fattening pigs, which is silly. This change will fix that, but the difference between the two groups also creats a hard line for when pigs functionality was "broken"

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Post by Filbert on Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:16 am

This is absolutely the right direction to go in, but I would propose that the amount of meat be 3 per fat level rather than 4. Because:
One unit of vegetables produces one meal. One unit of corn (processed by a pig-machine) will produce at least four and perhaps eight meals; seems disproportionate.
There is, in fact, a meat surplus (meat soup river). Whatever the past reasons for this, any rule change should make meat harder to raise, rather than easier for low-level Seekers.
Pigs give both Skins and a temporary Luck bonus, which is more useful than sheep's wool though less so than cow's milk. If they produce much more meat as well, the ranch will (continue to) be unbalanced.

And I don't understand the the reasoning behind some of the complaints. One of the strengths of TGL is the 'market economy' factor; if a lot of people work out that iron mining produces the best income and go off to the mine, ore prices go down and other professions become more attractive. This means that there isn't a single best way to spend your stamina, and needs to be encouraged. Setting up a pig farm was formerly the most effective and efficient way to get meals and soups; good luck to those who did it but not a reason to keep the system as it is.

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Post by Mena32 on Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:08 pm

and i don't understand the complains from low level seekers* we all started at level 1 in every skill and pushed our way up. threw the low levels. now every one makes the same. with out the same efforts.
low levels making the same amount of meat could end up meaning more meat is dragged into the game if you can have max yield at level 1. :deal\

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Post by Cpt_Coot on Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:52 pm

Meat is plentiful because a couple people in the game have been hitting pigs really hard for the past few months. It wasn't always like this. But if I produce 600 meat/week by working hard at it, isn't that supposed to influence the markets? How much less 'economy driven' do the markets feel when meat is made more scarce by aro, after months of a successful move by a few people to drive the meat prices down from 40b to ~20b.

The point is filbert, other food needs to have more use and appeal, so that meat isn't the food that 60% of players want to consume, but making something else more desirable by making the meat more rare feels much worse than adding use to other food. Making common commodities rarer just because they're on an upswing now makes the market less complex, which means it reacts less to player intervention. In other words, less fun.

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Post by Lord Arogandor on Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:14 am

Piggie update:
+ Corn can be fed once every two days (instead once a day).
+ Seekers receive now 3 meat for each fat level of the pig (instead of 2 meat).

A fully fattened pig gives now 39 meat instead of the old 26 (or 52 before this update).
If you don't receive any fat level for feeding grass (Chance = 12.5% + 0.125% per point on the Pig Attitude Skill), it will require 12 corn and 24 days to fatten your pig to the maximum.

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