Curious - Market Sales

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Curious - Market Sales

Post by Airy on Sun 13 May 2012 - 18:08

Hi Im curious to see what is selling and what isnt selling in our markets.

Are people managing to purchase and sell their items and if so what prices?

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Helfdane on Sun 13 May 2012 - 18:20

I've been self-sustaining, since what I need is either usually not on the market, or it's at crazy prices.

I also cannot sell most of my own items, such as herbs. I think most people are just farming, ranching, fighting, or doing collecting. There isn't really enough coin in circulation for much market action to take place, I don't think. Even for me, buying one tool on the marketplace would nearly clear me out. Imagine how new players feel.

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by anto_capone on Sun 13 May 2012 - 22:47

selling my meals, is weird...

i had them meals on there for months now, they just started to sell...?

other than that tho aint been selling much.
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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Axel Ackland on Mon 14 May 2012 - 5:58

Iron, iron bars, wood, basic things many professionals need. They sell very well when they're priced right. So, if you invest in a pickaxe or woodaxe you can make at least 2-3 silver a day, and it would increase as you gain more skill. Also stone mining can be a good source of income, I believe both towns need stone and will pay well for it.

I think a lot of the goods on the markets would sell a lot faster if they were more reasonably priced. Wood, milk, meat, and other food items would, i believe, sell very quickly if they were priced more fairly.

Generally herbs won't sell very well because they are only useful to alchemists. A lot of the time alchemists like to gather their own herbs.

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Lord Arogandor on Mon 14 May 2012 - 7:51

Eh I can post the sold items & resources once I found a quick way to make a table in this forum. It seems that simply copy-paste from my ingame office doesn't work :/

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Airy on Mon 14 May 2012 - 18:40

Hmmm, the cut and paste would be good.

Its the same for me, my potions now that I have dropped them to half a bronze stamina, and 10 bronze per all herbs, and 30 bronze per exceptional herbs, are starting to move and sell. Else they have stayed on there for a month. Ive dropped my prices in the blacksmith area to half a bronze per stamina too. Nothings sold yet though, however Im as low as I can go, without making it not worth it.

Something has got to give. I think it could be fields. Currently we have no over production which is good, but we have a too high cost to make them worth running.

A typical field wage in Spero is 30 bronze per unit:

Field
9 silver to work.
13 hops gained = 70 bronze.

(Im one of the older guys that would get a good yeild and so the yeild is still expensive for me.)

Now either the wage has to come down - which I dont think is the answer, because the game itself cannot control how much a person is willing to pay for their field. And so perhaps the amount of hirings needs to change, to 1 hire per field, the rest is done automatically. IE, you hire for harvest then your field auto-grows again. To keep it to the same time frame for things to grow, you could make fields rest one day, begin growing the next and take 15 days to grow. That would keep it to the same schedule we have now with all the growing. (if the economy starts growing this can be changed again.)

then when the produce comes in its only cost you 300 bronze, for 13 items = 23 bronze, which a far more reasonable price and may just get someone interested in buying the good. Its either that, or double the goods yeild.

Something in this economy needs to be cheap, so that it begins to start a trade, I say we try with this, then come back to the table to see how its going. Or if its working, then we move onto the next thing.
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Oh and Aro? May I suggest a minor cosmetic change if I could? Perhaps put a decimal point before the bronze. ie .30 bronze. It might just make people feel like their buying something cheap and under a dollar. Razz honestly peoples reluctance could also be down to seeing 30 instead of .30 (so seeing dollars instead of cents).

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Axel Ackland on Mon 14 May 2012 - 20:19

I disagree, as your skill increases the stamina cost of working on your farm will decrease and your yield will also increase. Then, towns can further increase the yield by upgrading the culture. It'll take some skill before you'll be making money off farming.

Doing this as a test could hurt some players who own these goods as the value of those goods will drop. I think it could also risk overproduction as there will be a lot less farm work to be done but the same production, more players might start farming because it'd be much cheaper.

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Airy on Mon 14 May 2012 - 23:09

Something has to be a money spinner and as for over production problems, Aro already introduces things that can combat that, ie the quests, special things. We are just stagnate, its as simple as that. I mean I can survive as self sufficient, I am trying not to be, so I become a consumer as well as a producer. Production is slow, and when its finally produced its too expensive for anyone to buy, or keep doing. Let us deal with over production in another way and take off the precision from the fields at the very least and start pushing this into a viable economy.

Im not trying to make money, but I am trying to kickstart this economy into an exchange of goods, which its barely doing right now. :/

You can make money as you say in the basic workshop goods or carpentary or blacksmithing, although I still avoid the market in order to try and produce affordable products - which still dont sell. (probablly need a faster durability so more items from work shops sell faster, plus beds and bags and other items should wear out over time).

Fields need something else, or they need to become super cheap so that people do make money from them, incredible amounts of money, and then they have the cash to buy from the workshops, else the work shops arent worth a hens peck. This economy needs to loosen up somewhere in order to bring more coin in. Having this equality in production across the board isnt working. So I pick on farm produce to create the super cheap items, as most things will run on those prices and ease the congestion from the..err.. ground up, as it were.

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Axel Ackland on Tue 15 May 2012 - 5:49

Total amount of money in the pockets of all Seekers: 135 Gold, 1 Silver and 54 Bronze. I think we're good on money in 'circulation', that was never really the issue.

More of a problem is lack of demand or inflated prices. Some of those problems will be fixed as the game progresses, new players will join and will need tools and also beds are planned to have a durability someday. Creating the items and tools with lower durability will raise prices of some items, as there will need to be more money spent to continue with work. As you may have noticed a lot of items have inflated prices compared to the old market system, but this will correct itself with supply and demand.

I don't see why you chose fields. All they produce is a few stat foods and the necessary items to produce beer, bread, and feed pigs. And they won't make incredible amounts of money if they lower the price greatly as you hoped. If you really want to reduce prices in the market the best bet would be to increase iron mining yields and wood chopping yields. (I think they're pretty fair yields right now, however, I think the iron mining yields should be more dependent on your mining skill)

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Airy on Tue 15 May 2012 - 12:40

Thats the thing, their great yeilds now, for wood and mining. But the cost of producing field yeilds is around 70 bronze per item. So why I picked it.

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Keliha Greyson on Tue 15 May 2012 - 14:12

+1 produce for 10% skill.
+2 per field level.

I believe all camaar field levels are at 3, so with potatoes I produce around 16 potatoes minimum or so with my farming. At 9 silver, thats around 57 or so bronze for potatoes-hops would be cheaper. I will admit, many people in camaar hire for 25 per job, but still, with field upgrades production of fields becomes easier.

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Airy on Tue 15 May 2012 - 15:15

Alright, I give up! Until Aro can give us a break down on whats being sold I guess. Just what I know and from what I can see, the market goods arent moving all that fast, are you selling your goods at 57 bronze? I know that I can go down to the water and fish for 11 fish per day and if i sold them at 15 bronze each Id get 1.50 coins a day. So why is 57 bronze a good price? I think somethings needs to need to be cheaper than dirt (again with the puns), and right now your field cannot compete with what I can produce.

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Keliha Greyson on Tue 15 May 2012 - 15:39

Historically, fish were a very cheap meal. However, history doesn't always apply well to balance, not without an overcomplicated system. The only real benefit is some stats are more useful than others. Endurance reduces chance of stat loss from starvation, and helps with mining. Also, I sell my potatoes at 55, but as I said, most in camaar pay 25 bronze. I admit, there could be some rebalancing of production, but unless aro works with someone who can take the time to look at production stats and rebalance...

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Axel Ackland on Tue 15 May 2012 - 17:30

Well, I wouldn't say that mining and wood chopping have great yields... idk much about wood chopping (besides that with the lumberjack follower you can usually get around 20 a day without skill), but with mining there's a lot of unknown you have to deal with. The best example is with the coal mine, back in the day when I first started mining, a day in the coal mine would yield around 8-12 coal, but now that I can mine in the deepest part I usually yield around 50 coal. But, these yields can vary greaty, its possible to not gain any coal one day, while it is possible to make 300 coal in the deepest part (very, very unlikely though). Then, there's the factor of losing health... I've had days mining where I didn't lose any life at all, then I've had days where I've had to spend 15 silver on healing potions.

With fields, you don't have to worry about how much your harvest will yield because you know the ballpark and it is guaranteed, you also don't have to worry at all about losing health or dying.. and losing all that you mined. Now, if I'm correct the skill you have in ploughing, harvesting, and sowing allows you to complete more units with less stamina, so when you have 100 skill it'll be 4x easier to do your work, with mining in the iron mine, the basic amount mined is 50 iron, and with a skill of 100 the maximum you can mine is 150 ore, which is only 3x the basic amount, not to mention that the skill only gives you a chance to mine extra ore, so it'd be very rare to mine 150 with max skill.

As for skill foods they'll never be all equal, and yeah, some skills have greater benefits. Cheese is made by curdling 3 milk so it should always be at least 3x expensive than milk. If I were to guess I'd say luck, strength, and charisma might have the most benefits when everything is coded.

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Keliha Greyson on Tue 15 May 2012 - 17:46

I believe it's every 5 skill in your field skills lowers stam cost by 1. So with 100 skill you spend 20 stamina instead of 40. However, you also gain field skills A LOT faster than other skills if memory serves. It's a "basic and simple" way to gain income, that levels up faster, but long term has fewer benefits even if short term it's notable profit.

Alongside that, when you consider the income of those things, don't forget the cost of items. Plows, axes, and picks. From a cheap pick you can get around 20 days of harvesting from it, and I believe from an axe you can get around 10 days of work. Higher quality ones grant a liner increase in durability-but the price increase is not the same line(The cost to produce in work units IS linear-but the mats are static, which has some fancy math terms about it but it essentially means higher quality ones are effectively less costly for their ability).

Due to this, you need to subtract the market cost of a pickaxe from the price-since even if you self produce, you lose that much material value and labor anyways.

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Lord Arogandor on Sun 20 May 2012 - 22:14

Dear Seekers,

I'm the first to admit that there are some "serious issues" still with our economy. I also think we made progress already with the new and more dynamic markets. That was an idea of you, not me. So I'm still willing to change and update the economy for further improvement.

I also would like to point out that the players itself and especially the towns can help to create a more healthy economy.
The progress of building the town warehouse and jail is pretty slow. IF the towns would pay a higher wage, more players would work for the town. That would bring more money straight into the game and all those stamina wouldn't been spend on producing tools or resources.
Towns currently have a lot of money that isn't used often anyway.

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by anto_capone on Mon 21 May 2012 - 9:08

idk what you see that doesn't make you happy with the economy. this is what small scale supply/demand driven economies look like.

you make it sound like towns are ripping people off. idk how camaar does things, but spero invests all its profits in its growth and we still cannot afford to upgrade all our fields. just the fact we are able to even BUILD a Warehouse right now is only due to generous DONATIONS to the town in the form of cheap resources.

there are too few of us, that may be the beginning and end of it.

in spero we pay at least .5 bronze per stamina for someone with 0%. for our warehouse we raised it to .75 bronze per stamina, because that is all the town could afford. we are to pay more? i do not understand this train of thought. yes, it would be faster, but for what? so that we cannot afford the next 10 upgrades that we now need?

spero does not have a lot of money at all. we also are losing residents for the first time since our creation. we stayed at 188 residents for about a month, and now we are down to 186. we have 1 gold and 35 silver and no stocks or inventory. that is not a lot of money at all. it cannot afford an upgrade of anything.

how can spero raise wages and still afford field upgrades, brewery upgrades, a jail and probably some needed upgrades there..
we cant even afford to buy the materials for anything... Sad




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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Helfdane on Mon 21 May 2012 - 10:43

Easy solution: Turn all humanoid monsters we encounter into cash/resource collections. Every bandit, looter, or even goblin we kill should have SOMETHING useful on them.

The problem with growth is people spend all their resources and stamina simply staying fed, and trying to replace the broken tools they're using to gather materials to replace the broken tools...

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Lord Arogandor on Tue 22 May 2012 - 6:47

Dear Anto,

My post was not one to point fingers to the town or the council. I have no intention of what soever to blame or put critique on your or any other councillor.
I do know that Spero didn't had the starting capital money like Camaar had. And I do know that both town leaders are doing the best they can to grow.

I just wanted to point out that there are more ways to make money then "just" producing goods.

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Axel Ackland on Thu 24 May 2012 - 18:25

I think in Spero we've been growing in population a bit. We have around 25 active citizens and we used to only have around 15.

I think the market works well, pretty much anything will sell as long as it's cheap enough, its just slow since there isn't much demand. Only thing I'd do is remake ranching.

Bandits and looters do give some money.

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Re: Curious - Market Sales

Post by Helfdane on Fri 25 May 2012 - 2:07

Only a bandit I have noticed give money.

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