Market Changes

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Market Changes

Post by Lord Arogandor on Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:12 pm

Dear Grail Seeker,

Our quest to improve the ingame economy continues.

The town market is not going the way it was planned. That is why we will remove the town market and merge it with the private market.
In short this means players will buy and sell directly from or with other players.

- Merchants from other towns will need a trade licence to sell goods from the market they visit. This will make trade licences more important.
- Towns will remain having stocks and be able to stock any amount of goods, wich can be used when the town council thinks it is required.
- Towns will be able to buy and sell goods at the market, just as normal players. However they won't be able to sell or buy tools, potions or items.
- Every player will be able to set any amount of goods at the market at any price.

- Making such market, will get closer to a real free economy. This will help us to see the real troubles in the economy. What goods are over produced and wich goods are just to rare to get. Once overproduction has been proven, I can add new code to remove the overproduction in an elegant way.
- A free market will allow Seekers to sell goods cheaper if they really need money.
- A free market will allow Seekers to gather monopolies.
- The new market, lowers the influence of a town on the market.


Please feel free to join the discussion, but try to add something. cheers

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Re: Market Changes

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:55 pm

My Lord, when will these changes go live?

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Re: Market Changes

Post by Axel Ackland on Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:17 pm

I like it Razz

You should give town leaders the ability to add more than one market overseer, though. They'll be needed to actively buy and sell for the town.

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Re: Market Changes

Post by robert on Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:21 pm

Well, suppose while you are making these changes it would not be too complicated to make weapons tradeable too, right?
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Re: Market Changes

Post by robert on Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:40 pm

I guess i will miss the old system, but i do think this should help out and letting people and supply/demand decide prices will really help out and things will be more fair in the end... I hope it transitions well... seems like the town might be left with a lot of junk they paid too much for though... and people won't be able to get cash as fast anymore.
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Re: Market Changes

Post by Rob Klop on Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:52 pm

Having constructed and analysed more than few gaming systems in my life I would like to give a little tip: finish the game before wasting time on a market system which might work now, but yet again fails when new code is added.

Every piece of code you will add in the future has to be brought in notice if you want the game to have a balanced economy.

I thus suggest it be put back to the old wayz and to pospone the idea of a 'self induced economy' untill the game develops further.

My 2 bronzez,

RK
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Re: Market Changes

Post by TheHeirtotheThrone on Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:01 pm

The problem with online games like this is that they are never finished.

There will never be a final release version, because the game is constantly growing and evolving. So to wait until such a time would be nonsense.

I personally support this idea, as I have suggested it repeatedly. Though I would like to see it expanded so that everybody (including towns) can buy and sell all items (including weapons)
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Re: Market Changes

Post by anto_capone on Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:17 pm

I think the point Rob was trying to make is one that I've begged Arogandor repeatedly:

Stop messing with the market, instead add other things to the game to make it more fun and dynamic.

Personally, I think this idea is good, well it is much better than the current set up (that I protested much).

btw, I told ya so! Razz
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Re: Market Changes

Post by Marche on Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:45 am

There will never be a final release version, because the game is
constantly growing and evolving. So to wait until such a time would be
nonsense.

He didn't say to wait till it's final release, there will be none. But I believe we can all agree that the game is still in the beginning stages of the plans with it. Hence, as Rob said, wait until the game develops further before starting to tweak with things.

Personally, I like the Town-orientated market set-up the game has now, although it also has it's issues. Perhaps even move the Private Market under Town Control. In a world with multiple Towns started up by people that could end up very interesting.

Nonetheless, I do believe balance is an issue with the market. The question is: Do you want to get it a bit working now or do you just wait till later?
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Re: Market Changes

Post by TheHeirtotheThrone on Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:48 pm

anto_capone wrote:I think the point Rob was trying to make is one that I've begged Arogandor repeatedly:

Stop messing with the market, instead add other things to the game to make it more fun and dynamic.

Personally, I think this idea is good, well it is much better than the current set up (that I protested much).

btw, I told ya so! Razz


See my view point is the opposite Anto.

Yes new features are awesome, but I would rather see the features we have balanced and working one hundred percent, lest we end up with a pile of half done additions like another game we know too well.
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Re: Market Changes

Post by Guest on Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:32 pm

And my take is in between Anto's and Heir's. Like Marche said, balance is the key to getting and keeping interest here. I dislike the notion of the Town not being able to participate in the goods market, if I read that right. Not saying the town should have total control over produced and finished goods, but the Town should be allowed to participate in that market as well. Even if it's acting as an agent for someone who may be away from the town for a bit.

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Re: Market Changes

Post by anto_capone on Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:21 pm

TheHeirtotheThrone wrote:
anto_capone wrote:I think the point Rob was trying to make is one that I've begged Arogandor repeatedly:

Stop messing with the market, instead add other things to the game to make it more fun and dynamic.

Personally, I think this idea is good, well it is much better than the current set up (that I protested much).

btw, I told ya so! Razz


See my view point is the opposite Anto.

Yes new features are awesome, but I would rather see the features we have balanced and working one hundred percent, lest we end up with a pile of half done additions like another game we know too well.


Spend too much time tweaking, and people get bored and move on. I mean you're right, things like the mood need improvements because they do not work so well as they are, which all in all is a new addition. We've recently had new monsters added that needed rebalancing.

But the point that you are missing, and maybe Aro is as well, is that it is going to be a waste of time messing with the economy constantly and changing it with each new addition.

Changing field outputs, changing the way the market works, ect; is not something new, shiny, or fun. It is cumbersome having to relearn everything, plan accordingly, and then have it changed again, and again, and again. It seems counter-intuitive, and double the work.

If you set a frame work, or long term vision, then you can tweak accordingly with little negative surprises. Logging in one day and finding out 'oh, I just switched my field from corn, but now corn has a higher output and more uses!' will piss people off.

I've been patient, I for one am still waiting on the fishing skill to actually be updated and do something, anything, for a year now. I saw one skill that no one else had and made it my best skill, with no benefit at all.

If Aro fixes the fishing skill to make it logical (and make it similar to how wood chopping skill works); it will mean that I would have missed out on a lot, maybe hundreds of silver. As it is now, my fishing skill of 67.1 is exactly as useful as a fishing skill of 1. Will I be angry when it is rebalanced? No, but others might feel that they got shafted.

And that's the point, this isnt a bad idea, but once again its going to make people have to relearn things. It gets annoying when you feel like you are jumping from one foot to the next, not knowing if the floor is going to fall out from under you.

It just feels that instead of making new things, and then rebalancing; we are instead rebalancing, then making new things, and rebalancing again. It just seems it would be easier, and more fun, to make the new things first imho. Smile
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Re: Market Changes

Post by robert on Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:44 pm

I think that basically Anto is right. We need new things to make the game more interesting, and we can see better then what is broken and what works well. Things will never be perfect or complete, so we just tweak the major problems and move on! I log in a LOT to this game to check market and things and see updates, and i like how it goes these days where I think i see something
1. Aesthetic
2 Functional
3 totally new.
4 a few minor bug edits etc.
every week or few weeks.

Things like a Christmas present and making new quests really makes people want to keep playing, but you need the functional changes like making corn fields profitable enough that new people don't all give up. You also need to make sure bugs are fixed before they get abused, and you need to make the game LOOK more appealing, because that can be one of the more important parts... after all people look at this game, they don't listen for it and it isn't a Hand-eye coordination game... It's all about imagining you are somewhere and someone else.

And no those aren't ranked by importance, because they are all necessary for the game and i like seeing them cycle to some extent (obviously you fix bugs as they come), but otherwise just sort of do something new like making weapons or beer, do something like upping corn and then do something like adding more of a background on a picture somewhere. Obviously, i think people PREFER more new things than the others, but they take more time... so if you get the chance to do a few new things and then work on the others for a bit... so long as you are working on them all over time, you are doing good Smile

EDIT: If you are looking for something that needs some editing to be better... I'd say that the Tailor job needs some more things to make and uses... such as a shirts and pants that maybe protect you in the mines or fishing or something... Boots could help you fishing too. Hats keep the sun off your back and help you find herbs... thoughts?
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Re: Market Changes

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:05 pm

Not to mention being able to use some of those skills taught at the Academies, besides wound treatment.

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Re: Market Changes

Post by Nogwa on Mon May 02, 2011 6:02 am

Let's remember that Aro is doing programming on his own,next to his day-job, and is always on the lookout for people who can do artwork (better and more often then him...).


We found a few volunteers that were willing to give away there artwork for free. But still, he is still looking for people willing to put in artwork for this game. If you know anyone dying to get there drawings published all over the world... :-) send him or her to Aro.
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Re: Market Changes

Post by anto_capone on Wed May 25, 2011 5:02 pm

Nogwa wrote:Let's remember that Aro is doing programming on his own,next to his day-job,

You are right Nogwa, before anyone begins to criticize our friend Aro, we need to take a step back and realize that we play this free game because Aro has an awesome hobby! Myself included, sometimes can be a bit too critical, and for that I apologize. Sometimes when I try to help, I come across as a jerk; and for that I am sorry!


Back to topic:

Great change with the categorized system. It is much easier on the eyes and mouse scroll. Smile

Has there been any new thoughts about the overall market though?
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Re: Market Changes

Post by Lord Arogandor on Wed May 25, 2011 5:17 pm

So far no new so called economic updates are planned Razz

We will add an arms & armors market still, but it will be the same like the other market chapters in the private market.

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