New Economic Update!

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My view on the matter

Post by Guest on Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:10 pm

The whole system suggests that everybody is doing a lot of trading. Personally I seldomly do town market trading. So whatever system is in place it is of indifference to me. Since I devote most of my energy into making potions and some on travel/battle Í got very poor now with the old system, indeed because of the cap (especially for wool). But I wonder whether things would get better for me personally with another system.

To be honest, my gameplay has reached a stage where Í feel I'm very limited by the choice I made a long time ago. In reality I can hardly obtain any cash, whilst I have potions worth close to 100 silvers !! I deliberatley specialised because I think it is quite inefficient to spread your stamina on many occupations and/or tasks. The fact that seekers do that puts pressure on prizes and forces seekers to sell with low or no profit. I guess there isn't any urge for potions in the current system, so seekers are not likely to request potions and/or negotiate prizes. Anyway, Aro promised that potions would become more relevant and therefore I decided to still stick around.

In addition, appearently Aro felt there was a need to change the system and I think you all should appreciate his efforts to implement something better. Most of you must have requested such a thing otherwise Aro would not have spend time on development of something new.

This reply may be somewhat negative, but the downside of my strategy was to be expected within the limitations of a game under development. But I hope that we can continue to give Aro preferably positive feedback.

RamsesXII

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by anto_capone on Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:33 pm

I respect the idea about the change, I just don't think it is logical to force a town to buy something it does not want. I don't see any true benefit gained from a change such as this, except for 1 person who always logs in at a certain time in order to bankrupt a city.

That doesn't make sense, and it is nowhere near resemblance of actual realistic market method. Free enterprise is based on supply and demand, and it is my belief that fixing the supply portion of our enterprise is the wrong section to fix: we need to correct the demand part.

I mean no offense, I just see this as both an extra challenge to those who already do a lot of work and math; and I see it as not realistic bargaining at all.

As a matter of fact, I could very well predict this becoming an entire economic collapse of the entire game:

If towns are left completely bankrupt; it will either stop purchasing the goods people are selling by leaving the buying price at 1 bronze each, therefor entirely negating the proposed usefulness of this update;

or,

The town will never have enough to buy basic needed goods like wood and iron. Once the final tools break, and there is no wood and iron to make more tools, we run out of wood, we run out of ploughs, we run out of bread, we run out of food entirely with no point of return. Dramatic yes, but entirely plausible under this proposed update.

Citizens cannot sell each other wood, iron, or basic resource. The town is relied upon for this. If a town is constantly run into bankruptcy because it stockpiles goods it doesnt want, it will no longer be ale to purchase the goods that keep citizens alive.

No iron bars, and no way to gather iron; and the entire economy of the game crashes. Iron is included in everything in this game. Everything.

It's a worst case scenario yes, but even with good management it would be more possible to have the entire economy crash in the game and it not be the fault of anyone except the coding...

At least now, we can set the maximum amount the town wants. Once the town sells from this maximum amount, it buys more. Otherwise, the town would overflow and go bankrupt eventually.

I appreciate the game, that's why I play. I just honestly can think of a lot better improvements than frustrating and confusing tinkerings with the economy.. Smile
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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Axel Ackland on Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:38 am

I would like this update with my suggestions. It adds a challenge to town leaders, but grants them ability to regulate their market more. I think it would be good if the town leaders were able to set amounts of money able to be used, but are also able to add more money throughout the day.

And umm, iron would still be able to be gathered and smelted even if the towns' markets crash. Bread wouldn't, though (I think), which would not be a good thing Razz

Ramses, personally I would buy health potions if they healed more than 16 lp (at cheap). I'd use higher than cheap, but those potions are too expensive to make or buy. So, the cost of making the potion is to blame for your misfortunes. Also a greater demand is necessary for most potions, for health potions, the addition of armies or change to mining or fighting code would help.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by anto_capone on Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:53 am

Axel Ackland wrote:And umm, iron would still be able to be gathered and smelted even if the towns' markets crash. Bread wouldn't, though (I think), which would not be a good thing Razz

If all the picks break and no town has iron to sell, how exactly do you gather iron? You can't gather iron without a pick, you can't make a pick without iron and wood, you can't chop a tree without a woodaxe (wood and iron)....

The only people that could gather iron and make tools, are the people who hoard their own stash in that scenario. And even then you still need wood...

Its possible... Wink

In any case, I don't see how any town leader is going to let the town buy anything if all it keeps getting are things it cannot sell..
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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Lord Arogandor on Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:18 pm

We will try the new system in a few weeks. If really doesn't work out we install the old system back in place, in addition to that the Grail Lords will refund the poor towns who suffered from our little experiment. For the people itself I think this system can't be really bad, so they won't need refunds or compensations for the suffering the economic update brings Smile

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Guest on Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:25 pm

If this doesnt work what do people think of the proposed quest thing it could help aleaviate the mass of goods preventing people from selling there things. I still think this system has merit. I don't really see the harm in trying it we have to be willing to change to be willing to see if it might help the towns.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Axel Ackland on Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:43 pm

Iron is sold by the players to the towns. There are such things as miners who are also blacksmiths Razz There's about as much of a chance to run out of iron permanently in the game with a town market's use as without it.

My personal guess at what's going to happen... people sell tons items to the towns, which in turn may go bankrupt. Aro compensates the towns and the economy becomes inflated, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think it's more likely all the new money which is inflated, will go mostly to those already rich.

Anto, set items that are not wanted to 1 bronze... It'll make the whole update mostly pointless, but its a good idea.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Lord Arogandor on Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:27 am

Anto, set items that are not wanted to 1 bronze... It'll make the whole update mostly pointless, but its a good idea.

It doesn't make the update pointless, it is just the right thing for a town leader to do Smile
Setting unwanted items at 1 bronze is more or less the same as the old maximum cap.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Guest on Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:14 pm

Appearently a lot around here want to be filthy rich, well I think everybody should have an equal chance to get wealthy

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Guest on Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:15 am

I honestly don't care how much money I have as long as I have enough to bake and cook for my town.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Lord Arogandor on Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:13 pm

*Update installed in the game*

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Axel Ackland on Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:50 pm

This should've been discussed much more...

I don't even think we've talked about how Spero's market is going to become stagnant, while most likely Camaar will be less affected due to their ability to put more money into purchase funds each day.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Norrie on Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:35 am

Camaar?
"Today's remaining purchase funds: 10 Bronze"
(5 hours after reset) 😢

I've never had an issue selling my herbs to the market, except for 1 or 2 types that were overstocked, The overstocked ones, I would just trade with the witch for ones that the town needed.

Now I suspect that the market will just overflow with Deadly Monkshade & Willow Anther that will never be bought and I'll have to log in within minutes of reset to sell the ones that are in demand.

sigh...
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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Axel Ackland on Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:57 pm

lmao I can personally stop Spero from making any profit every day. Still think this system is open to abuse Razz

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:09 pm

Yes, and I've set the buy prices for some of those overstocked herbs to 0 as a result.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by anto_capone on Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:05 pm

I still think this update is not logical.

Why should a town be forced to buy things it does not want or need?

This update is essentially changing the town into a stock exchange instead of a market.

Really wish things with the economy would stop changing, its making things harder and more confusing. Thinking about economy things just isn't too much fun for me, but I'm still looking forward to the non-economic additions.

I know the virtual economy means a lot to you Aro, so I will reserve my ranting for now. I will say this: that there are a ton of really good ideas that can improve this game, and none of them are about the economy; but many will help the virtual economy as a side effect.
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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:30 pm

To be honest, I agree that the economic system is bad for most. In addition I really believe that I'm personally even worse of than allothers. Since I specialised using all my stamina and money I'm hardly able to keep 'my head above water'. I really have only 2 silver left and I cannot sell stuff because of the cap every time (oh I managed to sell 2 potatoes yesterday). And yes I have to eat! I already stopped keeping 3 animals long ago because I had foreseen this disaster. Ok, I could try sell some potions at lower price than others (why are all of you suddenly making potions?) but than I loose because I payed you all very generously for making them. In conclusion: I'm thinking about taking a month leave again and hope things will be better when I return :-(

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Nogwa on Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:49 am

My opinion is that if a town leader checks his market daily, or has staff in his council to do this. This system will be beter.

1- All the power remains with the city:

* they can determine what to buy and what to sell by changing prices. I think nobody will sell his wheat at 10 bronze.


* they can also determine how much money they are investing at a daily base to the local economy.



As for now, the caps didn't stimulate the townleaders to really pay attention to the market, they just had to block the goods they had enough from and raise the price of goods they needed. There was no need to make them consider 'a policy' that is mutual beneficial, for the town and for it's citizens.

Now if the townleader doesn't act on what the market does, they will run out of money and have one big stockpile of the same goods.

Yes, I think this a good evolution, and can be twigged with a few extra options:

- refill the amount to spend, during the day.
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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by anto_capone on Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:24 pm

It doesnt make the market mutually beneficial at all, it makes it adversarial (Town vs. Citizens). Now the town is forced to do things like:

Not buy anything at all (set buying funds at 0 for weeks at time or until everything is sold)
Have one person selling to the town after reset of what the town wants to buy (everything is set to 1 bronze each, except what the town wants to buy that day)
Lower buying prices across the board to avoid influxes or market dumps (I just did this in Spero, right now)
Only set small amounts of buying funds per day (already doing this in Spero)
Not be able to buy large amounts at once (no trade between towns possible now)
Not be able to sell things for break even prices to help citizens (in Spero iron buy/sell is 1. Someone sells the daily limit of iron to the town, then buys it all back right away can stop the town doing business for the rest of the day. If I set the daily buying to 5 silver, someone sells 5000 iron to the town, then buys it all back; town is closed for business and has not gained a friggen thing! I would HAVE to drop iron to 0, but we NEED iron so that is just a stupid situation to be placed in!)


We already had things like hops set at 1 bronze, because it has no use to anyone. Difference is that now, everything except a few things will be treated like hops when they are in fact useful.

Lets give this nice example:
Spero has no wood right now, but there is someone chopping wood for the town right now. When they get back, they will have to log on right after reset to sell their wood to the town. If they can't sell right after reset, then carpenters and bakers won't be able to buy any wood because the town is the only place to buy it and it is already out of spending money for the day. If they don't already have a wood axe, then they might have to wait weeks even for the town to even be able to buy wood.


At least before, if the town went broke buying too much iron when it really need to buy wood we could set a hard maximum on iron. Now, a decently skilled iron miner could bankrupt the town since you cannot go any lower than 1 bronze. Someone comes and sells 2000 iron when the town treasury only has 20 silver in it and no wood and then what happens: we have to sell iron, then wait a day, and hope that someone sells wood before the iron miner sells more iron to the town. Or, we would have to lower iron price to 0?

I can just hear the complaints now of people who accidentally sell their stuff for 0 or 1 bronze....

A person that plans ahead based on current prices will now have no idea. Before you could say, 'well I bought this wood axe for XX amount of money so I need to chop XX amount of wood to break even'. Now, it's just 'I hope that when I am done chopping wood that the price isn't dropped to 0'...

It's just not logical, it adds unnecessary stress and confusion for the citizens and for the town. At least with market stability like before people could plan ahead a lot easier.
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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Lord Arogandor on Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:03 pm

Dear People,

This update is made with the love for the Seekers, it is not to bother or damage any persons Smile

I agree that things aren't perfect yet, and that we have to work further to improve, however I do believe that returning to the old system is not an improvement.
The new system will take a little more time indeed. Seekers have to pay a little more attention to see what the prices are today. I'm sure in a few days the prices will be more stable.
The town council has to pay a little more attention to the market too. Town Leaders, find a person who and want to manage the town market.

2 additions will be added to improve the system a little more:
- A daily balance with the income and spended funds in the town market.
- another small reset that resets the spending money, so that people after 12 hours can use the market again.

I thank all for their efforts to post their comments Smile

Remember, this game is suposed to be fun & relaxing Smile

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Axel Ackland on Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:29 pm

Hey, if town leaders are able to put and take money from the market funds, this would be a good update.

- another small reset that resets the spending money, so that people after 12 hours can use the market again.

Don't do this, make it possible for market overseers to do any time.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:02 pm

I can't see why anybody would bother to sell 5k iron and buy it all back unless they really really hate you anto. Why point to keep Spero from doing business?

I don't see requiring a little attention and thought from the town council as a bad thing. If anything this is an opportunity to get more people more involved. Admittedly I'm pretty much self-sufficient for food so I can see other people not making money being bothered more, but if you can't buy food, it's time to go fishing.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by anto_capone on Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:42 pm

Brian wrote:I can't see why anybody would bother to sell 5k iron and buy it all back unless they really really hate you anto. Why point to keep Spero from doing business?

What would it have to do with me? Nothing, if someone can do it, someone will do it eventually.. Wink
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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:00 am

I think this update just needs some fine tuning Camaar is having a few issues but i am not going to complain about it cause i am still getting used to the system.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Bracken on Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:16 am

anto_capone wrote:
Brian wrote:I can't see why anybody would bother to sell 5k iron and buy it all back unless they really really hate you anto. Why point to keep Spero from doing business?

What would it have to do with me? Nothing, if someone can do it, someone will do it eventually.. Wink

To me, the obvious solution to that exploit is to allow sales to refill the money pot up to the level the town has set. Any money above that goes straight to the town treasury, of course.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by anto_capone on Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:30 pm

Bracken wrote:
anto_capone wrote:
Brian wrote:I can't see why anybody would bother to sell 5k iron and buy it all back unless they really really hate you anto. Why point to keep Spero from doing business?

What would it have to do with me? Nothing, if someone can do it, someone will do it eventually.. Wink

To me, the obvious solution to that exploit is to allow sales to refill the money pot up to the level the town has set. Any money above that goes straight to the town treasury, of course.

good idea Smile
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Re: New Economic Update!

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