New Economic Update!

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New Economic Update!

Post by Lord Arogandor on Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:53 am

Dear Seekers soon a new economic update will be installed in the Grail Lords. The goal for this new update is to improve our ingame economy, wich isn't doing so good. The update only affects the TOWN MARKET directly.

How does the town market work now:
The Town leader, Market Overseer or Market Manager (in this post called The Town) can set the prices for every resource, food ingredient, ingredient or drink. They can set the price for how much they want to sell the good and the price for how much they want to buy the good.
In addition to that, they also can set a number on the maximum amount they want to have and a minimum they want to keep in stock. The minimum value might be usefull when a town wants to have some stock of a certain good.
The maximum a town buys is useful to prevent the town from having to much from a certain good. But when a town no longer buys, the players are stuck with their goods. To make things worse, if a town has a maximum, the town doesn't have to watch their set prices.
This is going to change!

After the update:
The maximum cap will get removed from all the goods. The town no longer will have control on the amount of goods they will have in stock. The minimum cap remains.
In addition to that, the town will be able to set an amount of money they want to spend on daily base in the town market. This amount can vary from 1 bronze to the entire town treasury. This amount will determinate how much a town can buy that day. Once the amount of money is reached, the town won't buy anything anymore that day. Goods that the town sells will not be affected by this.

To prevent that the town will get a massive amount of unwanted goods, the prices of that good will go lower, maybe that low, until it is no longer intresting to "dump" your goods in the town market. That way the town still has control over the town market and what will be sold or not. But on the other hand, players will have the chance to sell their goods faster. That is something wich is not possible at this point.

Some additional information.

- The spending money would be split in 2 halves, one for the reset at 23h and one for a new (small) reset at 11h. This would give more people the chance to sell goods at the town market.
- The spending money option will remember the previous amount, if the town leader doesn't change, it will remain the same.

Feel free to comment and bring up your statements about this Smile I like to hear opinions before we actually do this.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by ArcaneJill on Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:57 am

Lord Arogandor wrote:To prevent that the town will get a
massive amount of unwanted goods, the prices of that good will go lower,
maybe that low, until it is no longer intresting to "dump" your goods
in the town market. That way the town still has control over the town
market and what will be sold or not. But on the other hand, players will
have the chance to sell their goods faster. That is something wich is
not possible at this point.

A couple questions on this.. Does this mean that the town can no longer set the buying and selling prices? If so, will the town be able to set a profit margin?

Will bread be affected also?

What is the time span for the price to drop - X amount in a day? A week? A month?

I am uneasy about this. We have a chronic wheat/flour/bread shortage in Spero. If it becomes unprofitable for people to sell their wheat because 6 people harvest on the same day and sell their wheat to the town, it will only exacerbate our shortages.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by anto_capone on Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:05 am

so now the towns will be overflowing in useless corn? Rolling Eyes

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by anto_capone on Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:06 am

what happens when someone sells 100 wheat to the town, driving down the price, and someone buys 100 wheat 5 mins later? people have to wait a whole day to sell at a decent price, even tho the town has no wheat?

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Lord Arogandor on Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:12 am

Those are good questions dear Market Manager Smile

Does this mean that the town can no longer
set the buying and selling prices? If so, will the town be able to set
a profit margin?

This part won't change. The town will still have the total freedom to set their buying and selling prices.

Will bread be affected also?

Bread is a little different then the other goods. It doesn't get sold in the Town Market. So at the moment I don't think bread will be affected by this.


What is the time span for the price to drop - X amount in a day? A week? A month?

I am unsure what you mean with this. scratch

I
am uneasy about this. We have a chronic wheat/flour/bread shortage in
Spero. If it becomes unprofitable for people to sell their wheat
because 6 people harvest on the same day and sell their wheat to the
town, it will only exacerbate our shortages.

If there is a shortage, the town can raise their daily spending money, and increase the prices for wheat. That will make it more profitable to sell wheat instead of other goods. If the town runs well, then the town can spend a high amount for the daily spending money. It is not money that gets lost, because a good market manager will see what is required and be able to lower the prices of the goods that aren't intresting to the town. A player will be able to sell those unwanted goods, but maybe for such a bad price that the player won't do this a second time.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Lord Arogandor on Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:14 am

so now the towns will be overflowing in useless corn?

You can lower the price of corn as much you want. Even put it on 1 bronze. Smart seeker who will sell his/her corn at that price.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Lord Arogandor on Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:20 am

what happens when someone sells 100 wheat to the town, driving down the
price, and someone buys 100 wheat 5 mins later? people have to wait a
whole day to sell at a decent price, even tho the town has no wheat?

The Seekers don't drive down prices. The Town remains in full control over the prices. I just want to force towns to better control their markets.
If the town buys 100 wheat at a certain price, the towns spending money will be gone, wich means the town won't buy goods until the next reset. If another seeker buys that 100 wheat, a smart town will have made some profit. Everybody will be happy in that case. The seller, the town and the buyer. Next reset the town will have the chance to do the same, or participate on the new needs. Maybe more wheat is required, then the town can raise the spending money OR if the town wants to be sure to get more wheat, it can raise the buying price of the wheat.



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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Axel Ackland on Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:16 pm

I think the town should be able to put more money into purchasing goods throughout the day, and the option to create more market overseers be given to the town leaders as well.

Other than that, I like it Razz

Also, I'm not sure if it's like this already or not, but the town should be able to change prices throughout the day as well.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Lord Arogandor on Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:52 pm

I think the town should be able to put more money into purchasing goods
throughout the day, and the option to create more market overseers be
given to the town leaders as well.

This game is daily based. I think we will have to keep this for a while still. The town leader will have to search for a good market overseer. There will be only one. However the Town leader also got acces to the town market menu.


Also, I'm not sure if it's like this already or not, but the town should be able to change prices throughout the day as well.

This is already the case. And this might be changed into once a day.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Axel Ackland on Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:58 pm

Well... nvm then, I think this is a really bad idea.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Lord Arogandor on Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:14 pm

Well... nvm then, I think this is a really bad idea.

Thank you for your reaction. But such opinions don't really help us further.

It is useful to know why you think it is a bad idea. And maybe you even can enlighten us with some of your suggestions to make this idea better.

Also this solution might be not perfect, it sure might be better then what we have now. Now towns are stuck with goods and safe thanks the max cap. Even worse, thanks to the max cap of buying goods, they can put any price they want, knowing that nobody can sell their goods anyway.

The main goal of the change is to improve the economy. It won't be the golden path, but doing nothing isn't the right path neither.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Axel Ackland on Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:47 pm

Thank you for your reaction. But such opinions don't really help us further.

Hey, you asked for it.

Feel free to comment and bring up your statements about this Smile I like to hear opinions before we actually do this.


It is useful to know why you think it is
a bad idea. And maybe you even can enlighten us with some of your
suggestions to make this idea better.

I gave my suggestions in my first post... I could definitely see this some-what working in Camaar, but I can't see it working in Spero at all. Considering I could bankrupt the town with one sale of a few different items. Let's say Spero has 10 silver in it's treasury, I sell 5 iron bars to em for 10 silver... now they have no money. Some guy then sends me a mail asking for me to start a job for some chickens, I can't cause Spero has no money. Generally, towns want their markets to flow as easily as possible, this update will only hinder that. If you use my suggestions, it would require towns to be well-managed, but flowing markets would be possible.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Lord Arogandor on Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:54 pm

mmmm the town can choose the amount of money they want to spend in the market. So... if they only have 10 silver, I think the town leader would just spend 1 silver. And if the town didn't sell any goods on the market, the town would only have 9 silver left after that day. So the town would do good to spend even less then 1 silver.

I agree this will ask more of the town leader and his/her staff. But I think it will make the economy more dynamic.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by anto_capone on Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:30 am

aro, i just want to understand it. i cant agree with anything i do not fully understand. please, give an example how this would work, because i dont feel comfortable with it until i know how it works exactly. the confusion is leading to a lot of possible disagreement. Smile

a town leader is not what it cut out to be, i already donate 100+ silver to this town to keep it going and i would like to know what changes are being made. is no profit for town leader, lot of work and no reward.

just help me understand it please? Smile

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Lord Arogandor on Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:59 am

I gladly try to explain to you sir Smile

You fill in a amount of money that the town can spend buying goods from seekers on the town market. Lets call this sum spending money now.

The spending money can range from 1 bronze up to the entire town treasury. every time a seeker sells something on the town market, the town pays the seeker with the spending money. When the spending money is 0, the town no longer buys anything from the seekers that day.

So an example:

Camaar has 500 wheat in stock and many seekers got a stock of wheat themselves. They can't sell it because of the maximum cap the town has on wheat of 500. But in Camaar the wheat price is very high still. So what do we have: We have profitable prices for wheat, but a filled market, so nobody can sell his wheat AND the town feels safe because its stock in wheat is totally filled.
But, in the new system, the town has to spend money.
So lets see at some hypotetical (or however it is spelled) options in Camaar:

- spending money = 1 bronze.

The town buys nothing, nobody can sell a thing today, so no unwanted goods, but no wanted goods neither. The towns prices remain unchanged, and the town market can still sell goods itself. Result the market gets more empty in certain wanted goods.

- spending money = 10 silver day 1.

The town decides to spend 10 silver on the market, buying goods from seekers. After the reset one smart player runs to the market and sells his wheat until he got that 10 silver. The wheat price in camaar = 50 bronze. So we got 1 happy seeker who lost 20 wheat bags and 10 silver, the town got an additional 20 unwanted wheat, nobody else can sell something anymore, because the spending money is all spend on the wheat. Not a great day for Camaar.

- spending money = 10 silver day 2.

The Market Overseer of Camaar noticed what happend and isn't happy with the result. He takes action right away!
He lowers the price of the wheat from 50bronze up to 10 bronze right away!
Our smart Wheat Seeker, is back just after reset to earn another quick 10 silver on wheat again! But then he sees the new wheat prices. He really don't like the wheat price, so he decided to keep his wheat for a while. It really would be a bad deal for him to dump his wheat at that price. This means the 10 silver in spending money will be used to buy other goods, Iron for example or the wanted red berries.


Because of the wheat is only worth 20bronze anymore, the price that the town sells the wheat can be lowered also, lets say 25bronze. Because it only cost 25bronze anymore, more people might buy the wheat and make cheaper bread, if bread gets cheaper, more people might eat it, if more people eat it, the wheat gets used again.... and so on and so on.

You don't have to see the spending money apart from the prices of the goods, the town is in control over the amount of money to spend as well in the prices.
Today we don't have a market that plays with the demands, with the spending money we will have. Or at least get closer to it.

If a town wants some particular goods, it can raise the spending money for that day and the price of that good, that will attract more people to the market, selling profitable goods.

If a town don't want particular goods, it just have to lower the price it buys at, that will attract less people to sell those unwanted goods.


Long post, I hope it helps a little.
Sorry for all the typo's.
Feel free to ask further questions. I won't add the update until we heared the pro's & contra's.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:24 pm

This system has a lot of promise. to be honest i have been putting off doing a price analysis of the profit margins for the different feilds and items because i haven't had to worry about needing to change prices to prevent sales. this will spur more activity from the town as a whole i think. *goes off to crunch the needed numbers or at least find them and crunch them later*

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Axel Ackland on Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:45 pm

Aro, town's won't lower their selling price just because they lower their buying price. That would make them lose money, which most town's don't like to do Razz With this update, I would expect wheat to be sold at the same price from the town, but only sold to the town for 1 bronze.

I don't think this is the economic coding's fault, as much as simply the game isn't finished. There is no demand for wheat, because there is no demand for bread. Last time I was in Camaar, they had like 900 bread on their market. You won't find the same problem in Spero, where we only have 34 bread in the bistro.

When armies are coded, you can be sure there'll be an increased demand for bread, and in turn wheat.

Personally, I would add an expiration date to all food products. It would create demand for bread and wheat. The expiration could be either something like every 10 days, or 10% of a town's inventory each day/week.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by anto_capone on Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:55 am

Aro, I don't like the sound of it really. From what it sounds like, this will put more limits on market managers. The limit is already set because the market manager sets the limit, and this is a good thing. Why should a town be forced to buy things it does not want or need? Why should a town not be able to stockpile certain goods, for say an upgrade?

In Spero we are trying to drive down prices on bread and wheat by conducting field upgrades. Things flow in and quickly flow out of our market.
The only thing that sits there is corn, but since our economy is doing better we've set the max limit a bit higher on it. If our town was forced to buy all the corn and then forced to sell it at loss just to get rid of it, then I really don't see the point in trying to bother with it.

Whoever log in right after reset bomb the town with corn, coal, and hops, things the town doesnt really want a lot of; and then the town is forced to lower it sale price to get rid of it all? The town doesnt make enough to sell at loss. A few things the town sells at break even to help new players.

I see this stagnating the market, because if this goes into effect we will mark things down to 1 bronze to buy only, and no one will ever sell it for that low.

People have to rely on the town to supply things like food. I think forcing a town to buy things that no one wants is not practical.

It's funny that Spero has a hard time keeping bread in the bistro and Camaar is over stocked. I bet the prices are very different tho.

I don't like to see changes making things more difficult, I think it would be better if more uses were given to things, making them more useful, but not like a required usefulness (if everyone was required to eat 4 breads per day that would be ridiculous).

Being able to do things, like setting max limits a town will buy, changing prices during the day, and being able to spend differing amounts at all times of day for people who live in different time zones; these things are useful. They are also not the reason no one can sell wheat in Camaar. The reason no one can sell it, is because no one is buying it.

No demand = oversupply.

I don't think it would be intuitive to make more limits on the chain of supply in order to increase demand. Just because one person per day can sell all their wheat, doesn't mean more people will start buying wheat. It only means eventually the town will be bankrupt with stockpiles of wheat no one is buying. This is the logical mathematical progression.

In order to reverse this, you need to increase the demand of the products. If a town is selling an item, it will keep buying that item.

I think, an easy way to correct this: is through quest creation. It could be a daily, or weekly thing given to each seeker.
1: Go collect XX amount of XX item and bring them to me for a reward!
2: Bring XX amount of XX item to the Grail Monastery for a reward!

Can make these quests be random for every person, with a randomized item(s) and randomized rewards that can be once per day/week. Once these items are 'turned in' as quest items, they vanish from the game and are transferred as rewards like cash, experience, potions, special items that can only be gained by quests, ect...

Increase the demand for all items, but keep it optional like quests or something you dont have to do but can do for extra fun;
do this and the supply fluctuates better by nature. if your town has an ungodly amount of wheat, people that have quests to turn in XX amount of wheat will burn right through it, hoping for some awesome reward. Smile

I would leave the way towns buy and sell as it is, and change the way demand for items and products work. Smile

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:16 am

I think item quests would be excellent. It would also be a way to introduce people to new trades.

I do think that would do more to help the market. I think it would also be great if Towns themselves could set up quests.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:24 pm

The quest idea is great especially the town setting them up part. I would like to clarify that to my knowledge i am the only one supplying bread to the Camaar supply. I would be happy to help you with your needs if you want.

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Axel Ackland on Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:35 pm

I'm not speaking for Spero, but I'd prefer you not to supply Spero's bread needs. I would like Spero to be sell-sufficient for the most part, relying on you to bake bread would be a mistake. Sure, you said you make 100 bread each day you bake, which would be enough to feed both towns' players entirely, but should you stop baking, we would have inexperienced bakers trying to fill the gap. So, while the game is still in it's beta phase and has much room to grow, we should learn to bake ourselves before the demand is too great for a few inexperienced bakers to supply us with bread.

But, there's nothing to stop you, we don't have the option to create protective tariffs or anything yet Razz

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:33 pm

There's nothing wrong with self-sufficiency, but there's also nothing wrong with some trade either, is there?

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Axel Ackland on Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:42 pm

DiLasso wrote:There's nothing wrong with self-sufficiency, but there's also nothing wrong with some trade either, is there?

Actually there are things wrong with such a trade, most of which I pointed out in my previous post...

But this is straying off topic, Aro, what are you planning to do with the economic update?

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Re: New Economic Update!

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:21 pm

I was not saying ALL trade or even the one offered by Kidak. It was a general statement, as it appeared that you were indeed against trade in general. I was seeking clarification.

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My view on the matter

Post by Guest on Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:10 pm

The whole system suggests that everybody is doing a lot of trading. Personally I seldomly do town market trading. So whatever system is in place it is of indifference to me. Since I devote most of my energy into making potions and some on travel/battle Í got very poor now with the old system, indeed because of the cap (especially for wool). But I wonder whether things would get better for me personally with another system.

To be honest, my gameplay has reached a stage where Í feel I'm very limited by the choice I made a long time ago. In reality I can hardly obtain any cash, whilst I have potions worth close to 100 silvers !! I deliberatley specialised because I think it is quite inefficient to spread your stamina on many occupations and/or tasks. The fact that seekers do that puts pressure on prizes and forces seekers to sell with low or no profit. I guess there isn't any urge for potions in the current system, so seekers are not likely to request potions and/or negotiate prizes. Anyway, Aro promised that potions would become more relevant and therefore I decided to still stick around.

In addition, appearently Aro felt there was a need to change the system and I think you all should appreciate his efforts to implement something better. Most of you must have requested such a thing otherwise Aro would not have spend time on development of something new.

This reply may be somewhat negative, but the downside of my strategy was to be expected within the limitations of a game under development. But I hope that we can continue to give Aro preferably positive feedback.

RamsesXII

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Re: New Economic Update!

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